Hi Joanna,

I've spoken to Helen on the phone about my ms and she was so encouraging I sent it in. It’s not Kid’s Corner stuff so I assume you won't see it. Can't wait for the report. One of the amazing things about having an expert read your work is how much they find. You send it in thinking it just needs the odd tweak, and suddenly it needs a total rewrite. I’m hoping mine doesn’t (natch ) but I'm bracing myself.

The WW review forum (in terms of books being sent to the site and passed to a member for review) is very new… in fact we’ve only done one, and *cough* … it was reviewed by me. I enjoyed the experience immensely, but I have no knowledge of writing for children, so I wouldn’t offer to review that type of book. But several experienced members have signed up to do reviews, so send one in.

Good luck with the forthcoming publication.

Dee

ps – intrigued by your username…

(Colin waves his hand to volunteer to crit a YA novel!!!)

Hi Jo, welcome aboard. The water's a bit choppy at the mo, but it's settling. I haven't been on AW for a while, spend more time on here, and haven't seen much of the other one at all.

WW is the best of the bunch. Good, honest crits of your work, lively (almost pub-style) debate and a good sense of community. If you become a full member you'll get in the lounge (do you get that on a trial?).

xx
Grey

<Added>

The other advantage of having to pay for membership is it cuts out a lot of the younger element that haunt the free boards. Just thought I'd mention that because I came here first, then moved to look at other boards/communities and was surprised at some of the posts. Mind you, if I'd had the internet at 13, I'd have been doing exactly the same. I was convinced I was going to be published and rich before I left school. :)

<Added>

meant "review" not "crit" - it's first thing in the morning!

Dee, hope your report is positive (or positive/constructive). Every time I see a new supernatural drama hit the screens I think about your ex-agent. I can't believe he thought the genre had had its day - if anything it's having a massive comeback.

Good luck.

(that's assuming this is The Winter House?)

Hi Colin, how are things with your shiny new agent? Has she sent out your ms to publishers yet? (The Devil's Prayer, is that right?)

I spend quite a bit of time on http://www.verlakay.com/boards/index.php rather than AW, as it is more geared to writers who are already published. I have also just joined a private yahoo group for published writers, which is rather nice. Had a lunch with some members on Saturday and was slightly star-struck for a while!

Dee, I hope you find your report helpful. I enjoy doing them, although I find it harder to critique when the submission is really good (sadly, doesn't happen very often in the picture books I read!!) My username is the title of my picture book I use 'aspiring' on other forums, but since I've already met Colin under the guise of 'Moondance' I thought I'd keep it for this forum too...

I'm still waiting for her report. She took the book on after an initial read, suggested a few tweaks, which I did, then said she needed to book a slot to go through it with a fine tooth comb. Should be the end of the month. In the meantime I'm working on something else: Razor Face - about 10k into it, but wavering over the age of the MC. Considering making her a little older - 13/14 because the subject matter is possibly too old for midrange, plus there's a high level of violence in chapter 4, which isn't a winner for 9-12's.

In the spirit of sharing information, and because of my respect for Dee, I feel I should say a few words about agencies such as Cornerstones. First, I agree that Helen and Kathryn are very nice people. While I worked for Cornerstones, I always found both of them to be very approachable and helpful whenever problems arose. They operate a quality control on reports, ensuring no writer is going to receive one that's sloppily written or overly negative.

However, there are limitations in the way Cornerstones (and other agencies) operate. For a start – and this is particularly important for authors who have been writing for some years – you can't choose which reader will look at your work. You also can't communicate with him or her (although Cornerstones will, of course, pass on comments an author might send in about their report, and pass back any reply the reader might want to make). Apart from the fact there is obviously a range of skills and degrees of application amongst readers (some of whom will not have done much editing work before, other than on their own stuff), any serious writer really needs to work closely with an editor (and 'reader' switches to 'editor' at this point, really) who knows their work. They need to be able to discuss the type of editing required both before and after it's done. Cornerstones' reports follow a template – for obvious reasons; and while a good reader can work flexibly within that, at any level beyond basic, it's better to have the freedom to address specific areas the writer needs to face.

Another, obvious, limitation is pay. Cornerstones pays its readers only a small proportion of what they charge the author. I'm not saying this is wrong, at all – after all, the agency finds the work; they have overheads, etc. But a serious editor will find their own clients, largely by word of mouth if they're good, wanting to receive a fair fee for their work: this would be a natural process. Likewise, it is much more satisfying for an editor to continually work with a writer, and help in their development. I don't accept a client these days unless I feel I can help them, and they feel the same. But if you're reading for an agency, you don't really have this option; you just take what's sent your way.

Basically, while agencies are a good starting point, they are not really geared up to work with authors at a personal development level, towards coaching and mentoring. I was involved with a mentoring scheme that Cornerstones tried, but it didn't really work (although I have continued to work privately with the writer I was assigned). I believe this was because, at that level, you need experience of working with people in a training/coaching capacity (which I do have). To truly improve one's writing will inevitably involve facing and overcoming one's limitations. A good editor at a publishing house will help their writers in this respect, but then it's a little easier for the writer to do this when they already have a contract

Terry

Colin, yes it’s TWH. I can't just give up on it after getting so close. And, having had so much positive feedback from people in the business, I'm convinced it’s as near as dammit publishable. Even my agent said he hadn’t been able to put it down – shortly before he decided he couldn’t sell it…

Terry, hi. We’ve touched on this subject before, and I agree with what you say about a writer and editor working together on a one-to-one level. To be honest, I gave some hefty consideration to approaching you to work with me on TWH but decided against it in the end because the stuff I write isn’t your speciality.

And there’s the problem I believe most writers face. I know you, I have a huge respect for you, and I know what you specialise in. But I don’t know anyone else. So, at the point where writers need focused, specialist assistance, how do we go about finding the right editor to mentor us through to the next stage? I know the specific help I need with TWH, but how do I go about finding someone who can give it?

I decided to send it to Cornerstones after a discussion with Helen about the problems that had been highlighted. She was confident she could identify a suitable reader who can address the specifics, so I've sent it in, and await their report.

I've been banging on for years now about how we need another level between writers and agents. As a writer, I accept that I have to invest money as well as time in my work. I am willing to find the money for a professional critique in order to groom a manuscript up to publishable level, but how on earth do I find the right person for the job?

Dee

Terry, you make some very good points and I heartily agree with you. Cornerstones is very good at what it provides, but it has limitations. However, as a reader who perhaps critiques an average of four mss a month, I cannot possibly provide more of my time pursuing a relationship with any of the writers for whom I have written a report. Cornerstones simply has too many submissions for that.

Also, to some extent (and I hesitate about saying this because it is, after all, only my opinion), I feel that writers should not become reliant on another person to polish their work for them. That is what happens when an editor comes on board at a publishing house. If a writer cannot get the book up to the standard an editor requires before the polishing begins, then I kind of feel they're not cut out for it. Do you know what I mean? That is NOT to say that writers shouldn't perhaps collaborate with a freelance editor very early on in their career, in order to teach them the skills they need, but I cannot see that good writers should need that extra help after the first book. If you have an agent, they sometimes provide the first rung of 'editing' (pointing out weaknesses etc) and then when the book is accepted, you go through the whole thing again with an editor anyway. I don't know. Perhaps I set my expectations too high?

<Added>

edited to say: I didn't mean (second line of second paragraph) that authors become reliant on the editors - I meant that the polishing process happens with an editor.

I agree wholeheartedly with that; writer's should be able to edit their work to as high a standard as possible, otherwise, when they get onto book 6 of their series and the editor takes a back seat, the readers suffer.

Mentioning no names

Apart from JK Rowling.

Dee,

You raise some important points. I wish I could give you an answer as to how you find the right editor, but there's no simple path to follow. I totally agree about the gap between writers and agents needing to reduce. One of my bugbears about the industry is that it offers virtually no guidance or training for new writers. This is absurd; like a hospital saying it wants surgeons but offering no clue as to how you become one. In the past, this was not so much an issue, in that everyone – publishers and writers – knew that the way in was to write a good book, full stop. It didn't have to be perfectly written, because the publisher's editor would help you with it. Now, new writers are hit with a double invisible whammy: publishers no longer want just good books but won't/can't tell you what they do want, and they no longer edit very much. So, new writers are expected to work out for themselves what's required, and somehow get their stuff edited too.

SueH reporting from Winchester last weekend, mentioned a panel of editors there who'd all agreed that it's important for a writer to have a 'unique selling point'. Fine, but my question is, why isn't that requirement on their websites and various Handbook entries?

Only today, someone I'd done a report forasked me where he could go to get serious input, and to learn how to improve his (children's) writing. I said I'd come back to him tomorrow, because I'm still thinking about it; there's no obvious answer. I'll suggest WW as a good place to start but after that it's not such a clear story.

Very best of luck with Cornerstones.

Joanna,

Excellent point, about a writer becoming too reliant on an editor to polish their work. That's why I believe good editing involves coaching too, i.e. helping the writer learn to do it for themselves. However, I'm not sure if you're saying a writer doesn't need help once they're up and running. If so, I wouldn't agree: the level of help will change, but I really do believe that writing well is a lifelong aim, and can always be improved.

Terry

Terry - perhaps then you should recommend that the person who contacted you should join a local writers' group. After all, we learn by sharing work with others and getting their feedback. Whilst I agree that a writer can always improve, I don't necessarily think this should be with the continuing help of a mentor. I have found that both my agent and my editor have been more than adequate in providing feedback so that I can polish my work. It is up to the writer to find ways of improving, based on feedback - not for someone else to rewrite for him/her.

Now we’re getting to the heart of the discussion. How much should writers lean on editors? Personally, I feel not a lot. I believe writers should work their socks off to learn for themselves how to bring their work up to a publishable standard – which is what I've been doing for the past few years (would rather not count!). in my view it’s the only way a writer can become competent in the long term.

Being specific – I find it easier that way – The Winter House is MY work, not an editor’s. I wrote it. I've sweated blood over it for years now, and I believe it’s now as near publishable as I can get it. I've been given a specific reason why a publisher ( one who I rate very highly) cannot consider it for publication, so I want guidelines from someone with insider knowledge as to how I can get round that.

I'm not asking for someone to tell me what’s wrong with the way the novel is written. I've worked that out for myself. I know – honestly, I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here – but I’m told TWH is well written. All I need now is someone in the know who can tell me how to jump that final hurdle, how to bridge the gap between something well-written and something so good it’s irresistible, despite the contemporary idea that the genre is not selling. How do I turn a good ms into a breakout novel?

Dee

Jo, we’ve cross-posted, and we’re saying the same thing. Writers should never rely on anyone else to do the groundwork for them – just specifics is all they should ask an editor for, pre- pub contract of course.

Not sure I agree with you about local writers’ groups. I feel privileged to belong to what I consider one of the best, biggest, most active, groups in the country. It’s a wonderful avenue to meet other writers but, for feedback on a professional level, it doesn’t hit the mark.

Dee

How much should a writer lean on an editor? Hmm. I think it's helpful to distinguish between a teacher/mentor and an editor, and a copy editor - though of course they overlap.

A teacher will show you what doesn't work, and suggest the tool to get it right (no rules, please): metaphorically, they're looking over your shoulder as you carve, even very occasionally laying a hand over yours on the chisel. I think this is probably the first kind of help that a nascent writer needs. But it's also something that as you mature you should probably ease yourself free of, or you'll end up carving their work, not yours.

An editor is a representative reader, the one who says, 'I didn't get this' or 'I didn't believe in her'. And then you go away and write it however it needs to be, so she does get it. She's also thinking - though not necessarily talking to you - about markets and so on. I doubt if almost any writer can do away with a representative reader - though it may be their spouse, or their writing partner, or their agent, not their publisher's editor. There's so much about a novel that the writer's the last person to be able to see, let alone judge.

And a copy editor finds your typos, and tells you there's continuity slip in Chapter Nine, and there's a page where you've used 'elemental' five times and perhaps you should rephrase. It makes the MS look professional if you're anxious about your grammar and so on, but it's expensive, when (touch wood) a publisher should eventually be doing it gratis.

I think the TLC/Cornerstones type of editor can probably be any of these, if you know what you want and can ask for it. But there will be limits on how well they can perform any of these roles because, as Terry says, there's very limited contact before or after the report: they can't fine-tune how you interact as a face-to-face teacher can, and you may get someone unsuited to your work.

I have to say that agencies seem to vary a lot in how they structure things: with the agency I do these for, the deal includes unlimited (within reason) email and phone contact after the report, which I think is hugely helpful for the writer.

Emma

The nasty answer to all of these frustrations is that the really dedicated writer will find a way. Most of us on WW have a good understanding of how the industry works, the need (generally) for an agent, the agent pitching to the publisher, the editor pitching to marketing and so on, how to make submissions, how long we need to wait, what to do next, etc etc... but I've been to writing groups where they don't have a clue about anything! They write, and they dream about being published, but they don't evolve. If they do ask questions, they find the answers disappointing rather than invigorating. They don't redraft their work. They don't know what an agent is, what the Writers' and Artists' Yearbook is, yet they still call themselves writers. Aaaarrghhhh.

Too many people want to be led by the hand rather than get mucky and put in the work. These are just the sort of people who refer to published writers as lucky. Dee, you've obviously learned at some point that to get your work up to a suitable standard you need to learn the discipline of being your own editor. Maybe Terry is right, maybe there should be a more structured system in place, but at the moment, for all the man-traps, minefields, pits and dead ends, good, tenacious writers will find a way.

That's wot I reckon. 'cause someone's getting published out there.