Gary. Back for Good.

Robbie co-wrote Angels

Oh dear. What have I done?

JB

OK Davy, fair enough. We'll agree to disagree about the technical prowess of the Sex Pistols and agree that they were a great band. I did go way over the top. I just get constantly fed up with people who don't know what they're talking about continually playing the "ah but TECHNICALLY it's brilliant" card to back up their arguments and I felt like challenging it for once, as it related to a discipline I know something about. (Had it been film, for example, I wouldn't have tried).

Anyway I shouldn't have done and certainly not so impolitely. You obviously do know what you're talking about. So I apologise. Today I am calmer.

JB, you'll be waiting a long time. I mainly belong to WW to pick up the market news, read the interviews with industry types and so on. I come onto the Forums when I'm bored to shoot the breeze.

I've been through the "constructive feedback" thing when I belonged to various writers groups and circles, and it was very rarely helpful. I'm not saying that my writing didn't need fixing, of course it did, but the type of crits I used to get did not help towards fixing it. You'll notice that I haven't critted anyone's work either, as I don't have the time to put in the level of effort that people deserve. I'm impressed that people do, though, and all power to them.

Fair enough. Neil Gaiman also said something similar about writing groups.

JB

Hey - I was there! Trying to moderate Mr Gaiman, and the other uppity panel members. I do recall trying to make the point that there is no decent industry-supported training for writers, and he said he didn't see that writers needed training. And while I agree with what I think is the spirit of his point - that writers should be inspired, self-starters, not people who've been processed through a system - I still think every writer needs to learn his craft.

Terry

<Added>

And the industry does next to nothing in that respect.

Hi Terry,

Yes, I remember him saying that the only way for beginner writers to make further progress in the industry was to 'write better books'. He was also quite negative about writing groups on his website some time ago, and the inference is as you say, though it isn't very helpful advice to be fair.

Nobody writes alone, do they? Anything creative, that is released to a market, surely has to undergo some vetting procedure, some process of making it as good as it can be. I think Gaiman meant that while this is all very well and good, it's pretty worthless without the original inspiration behind it, but I may be wrong.

JB

What. Ev. Er.

I couldn't care less if you were frickin Steve Vai, to be honest. You just keep on patronising and belittling me, Griff, and we'll keep on arguing. Oh hoorah.

To be honest, I think you were challenging my comments so vigerously because I made them, and are now trying to cover the fact that you tried to use your "superior" musical experiences to make me look stupid. But I'm probably wrong.

F**k it, let's forget it anyway. Like you say, agree to disagree and all that, no harm done, but I bet I can play bass better than you...

Zooter, I'm sorry, I had no right to get catty with you back, I'm sure you meant everything in good taste, believe or not this isn't usually the mood in here, every now and then maybe, but not usually. Anyway, hope you see that I didn't mean to be such a bitch in that last post, to you, anyhow.

Colin - yeah, that song is the best.

Robbie can't write for shit, without Guy Chambers. Barlow wins surely...

I should clarify. The reason I said one might as well argue over whether Gary Barlow or Robbie Williams was a better songwriter is because I think that they're both rubbish.

JB

Waxy, I'd just clarify I was joking, I can't stand Williams, no matter who he's writing songs with.

And I woz joking about the bass playing too. I'm sure I could never touch the technical knowledge and prowess of Griff.

To be honest, I think you were challenging my comments so vigerously because I made them, and are now trying to cover the fact that you tried to use your "superior" musical experiences to make me look stupid.

I'm tempted to add "you don't need any help from me there" but I was trying to be conciliatory today after my funny turn of yesterday.

Oh right, I see. So you think I'm stupid now too? Charming.

Oh well, Griff, I'm sure you'll understand that really doesn't bother me, especially considering how you've exposed your own lack of integrity, intelligence and knowledge on this thread.

I don't need, or want, anything from you, least of all your conciliation.

OK Davy. I'll miss our little chats but life goes on.

So really this is not winnable debate because there is no right or wrong – I still think it’s an interesting debate, mind.

Beadle,

I agree it's not a winnable debate - it was never about the Rules are right or wrong, rather about whether we should use them unexamined and the extent to which we should be tied to them. I've found what's come out of it interesting. Glad you did too

Andrea

<Added>

or rather I should say 'it was never for me about ...'

Are we all suffering from Seasonal Affective Disorder?

(I know I am ).

Or perhaps there's something in the water - like a mega-high dose of testosterone? (God love that flighty little hormone...)

Oh, come on Davy and griff, i challenge you to post each other a smiley face and then leave it a few days... you're both good guys.
Who dares go first?

Casey