My head is still whirring from the recent thread in the lounge on this.

I am writing in the 3rd person, from the MC's (let's call her Rosie) pov.

Is the following, in capitals, an example of omniscient pov? Or is it just narration?

"Rosie sauntered down the drive and patted the bonnnet of her black 4x4. God, she loved that car. DAVE HAD GIVEN IT TO HER AS A THIRTIETH BIRTHDAY PRESENT. AND AS AN APOLOGY FOR SLEEPING WITH THE WIDOW NEXT DOOR. SHE HAD OFTEN..." and then this para moves into a description of one of the journeys she had made in this car.

Without igniting more heated debate, and accepting that rules are important but not necessarily to be followed, is omniscient pov considered undesirable because it distances the reader? Surely it's almost impossible to avoid, like flashbacks/

Excuse my ignorance, i am still totally confused by the intricacies of POV. I think my work reads okay with 3rd person pov AND omniscient pov.

Casey

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In fact, what is the technical difference between narration and omniscient POV???

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Is omniscient pov where you are describing something within the narration that the MC couldn't possibly see or know?

You've got a mixture of Rosie's PoV and omniscient PoV here, as far as I can tell. Which is fine if you know how to handle it.

If you have an omniscient narrator, who can tell us about what anyone knows/sees/thinks, you still have to make sure the reader knows when we're being given something that Rosie's thinking/doing/seeing, and when it's something the omniscient narrator's telling us that Rosie can't think/see/do.

If it's an omniscient narrator telling us, that's fine, but you've got a problem as it's written, because it's not clear if Rosie knows about the widow next door, and if Rosie's important, we need to know this.

If as you say you're reckoning to write from her PoV - i.e., she's effectively the narrator - and she knows about the widow, that's fine. In fact I like it; we get a frisson from this, coming as it does after 'God she loved that car.' What's going on?

If you're writing solely from her PoV, and she doesn't know, then you've got a problem: we can't be told about the widow, because she doesn't know it.


As it looks to me:

"Rosie sauntered down the drive and patted the bonnnet of her black 4x4. [this is omniscient, or it can be Rosie's PoV, if it's in character to think of herself as sauntering]

God, she loved that car. [definitely moved in Rosie's PoV and voice. I don't think you can think about PoV for long without thinking about voice.]

DAVE HAD GIVEN IT TO HER AS A THIRTIETH BIRTHDAY PRESENT. [either omniscient, or equally could be Rosie's PoV, though it's a bit plain for her: if it's Rosie thinking it, would she more think: 'How ever did Dave come up with such a brilliant birthday present? Even a thirtieth?']

AND AS AN APOLOGY FOR SLEEPING WITH THE WIDOW NEXT DOOR. [so, is this through Rosie's eyes, or the omniscient narrator's? We need to know, and that will affect how it's written.]

SHE HAD OFTEN... [well, this is going to depend on whether you're back in omniscient, or Rosie's PoV. But again, if it's Rosie, would she say it this way? Or more like, 'Those drives they did! How she longed for the summer to come, when they'd be able to...]

Sorry, I hope that isn't too confusing. I think the reason people often say they find omniscient narrators distancing is that - as you can see - the omniscient versions of some of these sentences are plainer and less engaging than the ones written from Rosie's PoV, and in a third-person version of Rosie's voice. Writing a novel which has omniscient narrator doesn't preclude sliding into Rosie's head - 'God! she loved that car' - when you want to. It simply means that you're not confined to her head. Once you're confident with it, there's no reason you shouldn't slide out of hers, and into neutral, or someone else's. But there's HUGE potential for getting in a muddle with this, and the more often you slide the more likely you are to get yourself and your reader confused. Which is why some teachers/editors simply say 'don't'. I think that's a bit feeble, but there's no denying it's not easy to get right. And unless the main excitement of the story is lots of physical or at least external action, it's very hard to make a story compelling without being inside someone's head for quite a lot of the time, because it's much, much harder to make us care for the characters if we can't feel and think along with them because we don't know what they're feeling and thinking.

Emma

Thanks very much for that, Emma, it's given me plenty to think about. I hadn't even thought about sauntered in that way. I just see that as desribing something that's happening, as plain narration, but i can see what you mean and can see that i'm going to have to do an edit concentrating soley on POV.

I've flicked through my work and as far as i can see, where i slip into omniscient i still avoid revealing anything that my MC wouldn't know.So i'm not quite sure what that means.

thanks for such a detailed reply, very helpful.

Casey

You're welcome.

So tell me: does she know about the widow?

Emma

Well, this isn't my actual story, but yes, i was writing that as if she did Which is what i mean, where i go 'omniscient' i don't think i reveal anything the MC doesn't know about. So i'm not quite sure where this leaves me.

I've surfed some useful sites on POV which say the trend now is for tight first or third person pov. If nothing else, pov alone for me is a good reason to send off to an editorial agency (just got to persuade myself to part with the dosh)

Casey

i was writing that as if she did

Yes, I thought you were, from the punctuation, but wasn't sure enough. I know you've only just made her up, but I'm really intrigued - that she loves a guilt offering...

If you're always writing from Rosie's PoV, then technically, I suppose, you haven't got an omniscient (aka separate) narrator, it's just a question of how much it's in Rosie's voice, and how much in a neutral one. Which is your single-3rd-person-PoV, as you say.

I'm sure you're right that if you picked a fistful of books off a bookshop shelf you'd find fewer with a full-blown opinionated omniscient narrator and shifting PoV than in years gone by, but as ever, you can do whatever you like, if you do it well enough. Never say never...

Emma

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And yes, I think editorial agencies are great for spotting this kind of problem - it can be so hard to do it on your own text.

Yeh, it's hard Emma, learning to write from the heart regardless of current rules and conventions.

It's taken me nearly 2 years of writing to reach a point where i'm prepared to take a risk and sometimes stop following the tried and test laws of writing verbatim. It's quite liberating. Possibly dangerous in terms of hoping to be published. But i think it's a point most writers reach sooner or later. Might make an interesting thread, to see how long it's taken people to find more confidence in their style. I know i've still got a long way to go.

Casey

It's taken me nearly 2 years of writing to reach a point where i'm prepared to take a risk and sometimes stop following the tried and test laws of writing verbatim. It's quite liberating. Possibly dangerous in terms of hoping to be published.

Not dangerous, because the work that'll get published is your best work, and your best work is the one which is most truly yours...

But as you say, you have to do your own thing from a position of technical competence, and confidence in using that competence. The point of all the guidelines is that if you understand the reasons for them, then you can use or discard them, just as a carpenter has racks and racks of different tools for different jobs.

Emma

Hi casey,

Not sure if this will help, but I found some info on POV, and it said this -

Omniscient - “the voice from beyond”
This narrator is an outside observer, not a character in the story. The observer is all-knowing and all-seeing. Like a god, she knows every characters’ thoughts, history, and fate.

These days, most writers use omniscient POV sparingly. I’ve even heard it cited as a mistake - like bad punctuation. When your characters suddenly start noticing and describing things in language which doesn’t fit who they are, you are slipping into an omniscient POV. Avoid this. It jars the reader out of your story.

Omniscient POV, however, does have its place. It can be great for setting the first scene or introducing characters. You can also use it to foreshadow future events. I think of it like a voice-over in a movie.

The trick is to be aware. You don’t want to fall accidentally into omniscient POV. It should be a conscious choice.

So -

(1)Your POV character is like the lens of a camera. She can see only what’s in front on her. She can notice the sound of heavy footsteps behind her or smell the sudden scent ot cologne, but she can’t describe this stranger’s wicked smile or thick brown hair until she turns around.

(2) Aim the camera judiciously. Your POV character should notice and react to what is important to her. The hero’s home may have extensive gardens, but unless she loves flowers, she shouldn’t be describing every plant - especially by its botanical name!

(3) Each POV character sees the same event differently.

Ann’s POV: Ann was so proud of her fine embroidery she eagerly showed the piece of completed cloth to Mrs. Smith, who glared at her as if she were stupid.

Mrs. Smith’s POV: Ann was so proud of her embroidery, the stupid girl eagerly showed the mess to Mrs. Smith, who glared.

Both sentences relate the same event, but from distinct POV’s.

So how do you decide which character’s POV to use? The general wisdom is chose the the character who has the most at stake in the scene.

(4)If a scene is giving you trouble, try it from a different character’s POV.

(5)Be careful about letting your POV character describe her own physical appearance. She can complain about her “unmanageable blonde curls”, but when in her POV, her “mane of lustrous blonde curls” shouldn't’ “glint in the sunlight as she tosses it back.” Real people don’t think of themselves in those terms. Save that detail for another character’s POV.

Of course, in first person POV the heroine has to describe herself. Make sure what she reveals is relevant to what’s happening. She might compare herself to others or share her feelings about her looks.

Whether in first or third person POV, resist the urge to have her stare into a mirror and describe herself, it’s not only lazy writing, it’s trite.

(6) Have each POV character use language which reflects who they are. Teens have a different vocabulary and life experience than adults, so do men and women and adults of different ages and backgrounds. Make each character’s language distinct.

(7) When done well, it should be obvious to the reader whose POV you are in, even without the character’s name. This is “deep POV”.

In deep POV, a character’s words and thoughts are a reflection of their own unique experiences. The kitchen won’t just “smell like apple pie”, it will “smell like the apple pie Grandma Jane used to bake every Thanksgiving”.

Details like this make your characters real to the reader. The more they invest in your characters, the more likely they are to keep turning the pages. I think achieving deep POV can even make the difference between a good story languishing on the slush pile and becoming a bestseller.

Hope you find some of this usefull

Katerina

Thanks so much for that, Katerina, very, very useful. I think i've just about got to grips with writing from my MC's POV, although reading this i am still guilty of the occasional slip with physical appearance.

The section on omniscient POV especially interested me and i liked the analogy with film-making.

I suspect i shall be re-reading this whole thread a few times, so thanks again to you both.

Casey

Yes, good nuts-and-bolts stuff. The PoV character having to describe herself is always awkward, but it helps if you break it up. The reader really doesn't need to know the full hair-eyes-figure details all at once, and is quite capable of putting two and two together: the fact that if she doesn't stay out of the sun she'll burn could be enough for the first chapter.

I was amused that though I never described a my first-pers0n-narrator/MC in any detail, what my sister thought she looked like matched exactly how I saw her but had never said, right down to height and size of boobs. So sometimes, as long as you're thinking it, it'll somehow transmit.

Emma