Davy

Whilst most of the SE's are pretty good, I've received crits from one or two where they've committed basic critting sins such as misreading words (even quoting them back mis-spelt!)and making a criticism on the basis of that misreading.

I value the criticism of those writers on WW (experts or not) whose writing I myself admire, and whose approach to critiqueing is intelligent and interested, simple as that. I certainly don't take the status of Site Expert as a qualification of expertise in any objective or professional sense, and nor should anyone. The fact is, I don't admire the writing of every Site Expert, for reasons given above about taste etc.

Dave, of course I don't think you're dense. Far from it.

Casey you're right, there is a difference of approach depending on how experienced the crittee is.

Pete

Beadle

I don't understand why a writer would want to have somebody read their work, dislike it, and then post the reasons for their dislike on the end of the work. I mean why would you welcome that? Just a non-starter for me.

I want to hear from someone who gets what I'm doing in a piece of writing, likes it, and can see ways where it might be improved or explain reasons why it isn't working. I want the person who's critiqueing my work to be supporting me (it can be done as harshly as you like, just as long as it's supportive). That's constructive criticism and that's what this site should be about.

Pete

I think the issue of dislike or like is irrelevant on a place like Write Words. We post our work and we are looking for feedback.

It shouldn’t be a simple case of whether one liked it or not, but more how the reader felt about it: what was the narrative like; the characters; the descriptions; the emotions; the language; the grammar. All writers need this feedback and it can be given without having to commit to a like or dislike.

Because that’s what the real world is going to be like if a writer ever gets beyond the rejection slip. Yes, to be accepted by an agent or publisher, there will have to be a point where some one says ‘I get this’ – but it doesn’t necessarily follow that they like the work, or even that like or dislike comes into it. It could simply be a commercial decision.

Did a publisher sit there saying “Jeez, Dan Brown is the best writer ever”? More likely “I can sell a lot of these books!”

And when the book goes through the editing process, is it always going to be the case that the chosen editor will only sign up to work on books they like? No, they will apply their editing skills regardless. I think critiques on here should be the same.

I understand that if you start to read something but don’t get very far because you don’t like it, then fair enough you should not continue and won’t be able to comment. But to read something then not comment because of taste, dislike or whatever, seems a waste of the reader’s time and a missed opportunity.

It may be a challenge to present the critique in a constructive or objective way, but it’s worth the effort.

No matter what labels we apply to ourselves, whether experts or novices, ultimately we are all largely driven by gut feeling – how a piece of writing makes us feel. So if we can express those feelings in a critique, and avoid the easy definitions (at least on paper) of like or dislike, then it will be valuable to the writer who wants honest feedback.

I think that’s is supportive. I think that is what WW should be about.

Beads

You're on a wind-up, right?

Pete

(Please be on a wind-up.)

Why? Because you don't agree with me?

Okay, if it makes you happy. It's all a wind up.

You're right. I'm talking crap.

Okay.

Good.

Beadle

Hey wait a minute, hell yes I disagree, like monumentally, just wanted to check first, that's all. Jeez.

Pete

Look, I've been drinking heavily; it's been six weeks since my last chocolate bar and my ego is THE SIZE OF A PLANET! I reserve the right to be an a*hole - ok?

Yeah I've been drinking heavily too and my ego hasn't eaten a planet for seven whole days.

I certainly don't take the status of Site Expert as a qualification of expertise in any objective or professional sense, and nor should anyone

Okay Pete, let's agree to disagree. I just think what you wrote is incredibly disrespectful, when people are giving up their time to help us.

Davy

If you're going to throw out that kind of accusation you should take the time to explain your reasoning.

What is it in the quoted statement that you find disrespectful?

Is it your argument that because somebody gives you time and expertise then you automatically owe them your respect?

On WW as in life I view warily any supposed authority on anything and I try to use my own judgement on a person by person, event by event basis to decide what I think.

Pete

Is it your argument that because somebody gives you time and expertise then you automatically owe them your respect?

Yes.

I don't understand why a writer would want to have somebody read their work, dislike it, and then post the reasons for their dislike on the end of the work.

Hi Pete

I have to say, the first editor to read Novel 1 absolutely disliked it. She could have said politely that it wasn't for her but she went to great lengths to detail exactly what she didn't like, which was basically the entire subject matter. Although it really hurt to hear it (from the mouth of a very respected editor no less) I found it hugely useful because she made points that I hadn't even considered. I had a bit of a cry, then a rant, then a glass of wine, and by the end of the day - well probably the end of the week - I was grateful to her.
I could have spent years trying to polish the piece to make it better, but at a fundamental level it just wasn't for her. It made me realise that it was probably a bit too intense for many people and when I wrote Novel 2 I tried something completely different (historical fiction) that I adored.

I think sometimes the people who hate your work are more useful than those who love it.

On a personal note if I buy a book and decide I love it, I gloss over the flaws and pretend they don't exist. If I decide I hate a book, my mind is much more open to spotting its flaws.

PS Novel 1 is still on submission, so I live in hope!

Lisa, I completely agree, and I had a very similar experience with one of the SE on this site, and I owe them a hell of a lot, least of all my respect. What you wrote was great, coz that sums up exactly what I was getting at.

Oh well, maybe one day I'll catch up with Pete and be so good I can give the Site Experts some advice.

Can't wait.

Davy

Some Site Experts I respect more than others, that's all.

I've seen one or two behave with arrogance and misplaced authority. I've seen others behave with intelligence, grace and helpfulness.

I don't give out respect just because somebody has a label. You can if you want to.


Lisa

Do you mean it's better for a writer if their editor dislikes the writer's work? I would have thought the opposite.

I haven't said negative criticism isn't useful, on the contrary, I believe in the value of a balance of positive and negative feedback.

In the same way that liking a piece can, as you say, make you gloss over problems, faults can seem bigger and more annoying in a piece you dislike than they realistically are.

Pete

I've just had my first 'story' rather than 'flash' accepted! So am thrilled.

I wrote it with a particular ezine in mind then posted it in my group - received lots of very helpful feedback. Sent it off. It came back - we like it but would need a significant rewrite - up to you if you want to give it a go.

The editor sent a detailed list of gudelines for the rewrite - which significantly was a distillation of all the points raised in the WW critiques - everything he said - the good and the bad - someone here had said to me in one of the comments.

So then I came up with a rewrite - posted it again in my group - also in 'introduce your work' and asked one of our site experts would he please take a look for me.

Received some more brilliant feedback and the site expert wrote me a detailed comment that not only helped me with this story but provided guidance and future direction for me in my work.

Two rewrites later and bar 'a couple of punctuation points' I'm there! And I certainly couldn't have done it on my own

sarah