I'm not saying that Emma. I'm not saying harsh = truth, I'm saying truth = truth. Anyway whether someone thinks something is crap is not the point, if you're not in a position to improve the piece, then just saying this is crap is obviously pointless and just being rude, but then again it is also being honest. If I read something I think is so bad, then obviously I'll just move on to the next piece, but if that were in Novel 1, then I'd say something, in a constructuve manner, and we need to be honest in those circumstances.

And my main point is that I want to learn from this site, I'm not here just to get validation, or to get as many people as I can to say "yeah you're good", I want to be a better writer, I want to do it professionally, and if I can get there, then I want my writing to be dynamic, I want people to believe in my characters and my stories, I don't want to be Dan Brown or John Grisham, so what I'm saying is, if we choose the harshest option, "Go on..." then we should expect harsh feedback, and expect to give it. That doesn't have to be:

"OH MY GOD THIS IS SO BAD! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?? CALL THIS WRITING?? OH. MY. GOD."

It could be:

"Why is X saying that? Why would X do that? This doesn't work because of A and B. You need to sit down, accept this is badly written and go back to the drawing board"

If I had never had that kind of feedback, via becoming a member of this site, I would be a worse writer now than I was when I started doing this seriously 5 years ago. I'm sure most of us here wrote stories at school, when we were kids etc, but to succeed in the profession, we need to learn and be told when we are going wrong. The fact that we don't have to fork out for a weekend course and get that kind of help on WW should be a major bonus, but unfortunately people who are inclined to speak truthfully, with a view to helping others improve, for no more than the love of doing it and to help eradicate bad writing, are put off because of this rubbish attitude that we all have to suffer for because some people can't take honest criticism.

All I'm saying is if you cannot take harsh words, and I mean harsh enough to make you cry, not because they are rude, but because they brutally honest, i.e. alluding that you still have alot to do to improve as a writer, if you can't take that then don't click "Go on...", click the one below "Not too harsh please...", and then the critter will know to either leave it, or smile sweetly and say in a monotone voice: "yes that's really really good, can't wait to see this one on the shelves", or just point out a few typos and direct a bit of constructive feedback like "Hmmm, I think your MC could maybe be a bit more dynamic" or something.

That makes sense doesn't it? Why must we all suffer coz some people think its better to just leave it and pretend, rather than be honest and say what they mean?

Hi Davy

I think you may have missed my point.

I aim to be honest and direct in criticising. The point, for me, is my motivation, which is wanting to contribute to making the piece better. And for me it just makes loads more sense to spend the considerable time and energy it takes to do that properly on a piece which I believe has promise and which I have at some level enjoyed reading.

Pointing out that you've appreciated what a writer has tried to do is important, whether it's at line level or story level or anywhere in between. Apart from anything else, showing that you are tuned in to what the writer is attempting increases the value of your criticisms to him massively.

There's tons of brilliant writing in the world which I will never like. It's not to do with the writing, it's to do with me, my taste. Where would be the point in me criticising it? You might as well be a vegetarian and have a pop at the chef who's cooking meat for the guy at the next table.

Pete

Forgive me for being dense as I don't want to hurt anybodies feelings Dav, Casey but are we using the wrong terms here.

It's just my opinion and please feel free to ignore if it doesn't help but,

to criticise is very different to a critique,

I try not to criticise but offer an honest, constructive critique. Any critique should point out the flaws (negatives) and the positives of the writing. Unless of course it is a perfect piece of prose.

We all need to know what we do right (so that we can keep on doing it) as well as what we are doing wrong (so that we can try to improve it if, improvement is what we seek)

There have been some very valid points in this thread and I think Davster has a point if you check the "go on I can take it" then you should be ready for anything (as long as it is presented in a constructive manner).

Some people write for the pure pleasure of it and have no wish, need or motivation to improve. This also is Ok as long as you let us know by checking a different crit box.

I for one want to learn. So if you're ever passing by the baby goats or Flash Too give us a wave and an honest crit, it will always be appreciated.

Kev.

But surely this website isn't about taste? It's about writing?

We respond as readers - but the critique is informed by what we know, or at least feel we know, as writers. It's the difference between 'I liked this' and 'I liked this because of the great narrative' etc.

It can be a difficult balance to strike between being honest and being constructive if you do not like or did not enjoy something. But surely if you have read something on a writers' website then you owe it to the writer to provide feedback - whether it is good or bad, or whether it makes you as the reviewer feel comfortable or not. Otherwise what is the point?

If one stick the groups, then you will at least keep to the genre you like or feel comfortable with, so there the issue of taste isn't as relevant. Or, if the group is not genre related, then you start to build up an understanding and relationship with other members whereby even if you know that somebody doesn't 'get' your work, at least you can still take value from their comments.

I think for most of us on write words we want honest feedback from people that care about writing.

No I see what you mean Pete, and fair point, if we were a site full of professional writers, or if we were talking about books by people who have mastered their craft, but this is site for amatuers, in the main, trying to improve and learn to become better writers and hopefully become professional as a result.

And besides, good or bad writing boils down to more than just personal taste, same as film making. Of course taste comes into it, but technically speaking, Dan Brown is a bad writer, though a fair story teller, in that he invents quite good stories (I mean they excite people's sensibilities and aspirations), in the same way that George Lucas is a bad script writer, but a great producer. People can say that's just your opinion, but its more than that. The way Brown draws his characters, throws any semblence of POV out of the window, completely disregards the fact that certain phrases are now basically nothing more than cliches, all contribute to his bad writing.

And the fact that Lawrence Kasdan wrote the most superior Star Wars script, in The Empire Strikes Back, which way outstrips anything Lucas wrote, illustrates that compared to a pro script writer, he is technically quite poor. But the films he's produced have been fantastic and genre defining.

Okay I'm going off on one now, but I accept I may have misinterpreted you Pete, but also I maintain this site is not about enjoying everything people write, but trying to improve as a writer, which you cannot do without learning to accept criticism, and more importantly, which criticism you REALLY should accept.

You know it gets me down when a Site Expert, a pro, has their views tossed back as if they know no more than the person they are critting. This happens alot on WW, I notice. Not even the fact that the writer finds reasons why the SE just "hasn't got it", that's a natural reaction, the real test is to overcome that and see what they are saying, and usually it's truthful and helpful and the key to improving is getting passed that hurdle of accepting that you may not have written the best thing ever, in fact its not even the best thing YOU can write, but worse than all that, far worse, is the fact that others step in and support the writer AGAINST the SE, and help give them the validation they crave, but the real useful information, that will help them improve is thrown away, lost, because others think its not terribly chipper to give negative criticism.

It defies the point of this site and we all suffer from that attitude, because the Expert is just going to think, well what's the point of that then?

And I don't blame them at all.

<Added>

Soz Beads and Kev, didn't see you there.

That was crazy tho, I think we psychically cross posted like those weird mutant freaks, the Fantastic Four. Well, three. I think we should get the costumes made. They're gonna be pretty tight tho, spandex, if that's okay? Cool...we can have guns too and stetsons too, tho Kev, and be sort of like modern day outlaws. And Jimmy Saville will be kind of like our Charlie character in Charlie's Angels (he's not called Charlie is he? go on, you can tell me...)

Howzabout that then?

And that other stuff, the writing thing, I think I probably agree :)

Hi Davy

I can make it clearer if you want, but I think you're being a bit wilfully dense about this.

I choose to comment on the strengths and failings of writing that I like. I don't see the point in commenting on the strengths and failings of writing I don't like.

Pete

I've found myself defending a piece of writing that I ASKED and paid for to be edited.
'but you missed the point'
'no didn't you read this bit that set that bit up.' etc.

What an arse I was. Why ask for the help if you don't want it. I've still got my first three chapters with my excuses marked in RED BOLD. I have it hung on my office wall and blush at the site of it everyday.

It is only a few months after the fact that I've realised he was/is right and I've now taken it on board to the point where I'm contemplating a complete re-write not just an edit. Keeping the mss in the draw for two months, re-reading and then reading the edit notes has put the piece into perspective.

You've got to value those that have been there, done that otherwise, forget it, you will never improve. Accepting that your work isn't what you thought it is, is the first stage to improving your writing. Wanting to change, grow, improve means being open to the good, the bad and the ugly.

I'm a bit saddle sore at the mo Dav. Need to strip off them chaps and jump in the tub.

But Kev,
isn't the definition of criticism 'fault-finding' or 'judging the merit of something' and isn't that exactly what we should do?

I think criticism is an important part of critiquing, but like i've said, it shouldn't be brutal, it should be constructive ie don't criticise something without trying to suggest a way it could be improved.

This is only my humble opinion, though

I think it is very difficult not to fall into the validation trap, and when i am criticised i admit, sometimes i think, yeh, well, you wouldn't think it was that bad if you knew the story like i do etc etc....i think you really have to open your mind to other people's opinions. I've become a lot more thick-skinned as well, which is important. I mean let's face it, even if you get published you're probably at one time going to come across harsh reviews.

COMPASSIONATE HONESTY. There you go, that's the hat i think we should be wearing when we sit down to critique.

Casey

ie don't criticise something without trying to suggest a way it could be improved.

-actually I would say the opposite. I think one of the most irritating things in a critique is other members offering solutions, especially word for word solutions, a bit like an actor being shown how to say his lines. I think it's enough to say something doesn't work and to give the reason why, or to hint that it might be structural, say, or stylistic, and then hope that that might trigger a solution for the writer.

Pete

Thanks Pete, I am so sorry for being so dense.

"I choose to comment on the strengths and failings of writing that I like. I don't see the point in commenting on the strengths and failings of writing I don't like."

Okay, I do get what you mean, I'm not deliberatly missing your point on purpose, for some random reason. Comment on what you want, I'm not saying you should comment on anything, or not comment on anything, I'm saying that we need to be able to give and take harsh criticism to improve as writers, and there a few people on here, we are lucky in that respect, that are capable of doing that, given they have years of experience in the field. And from them we can learn to crit well too, and then we all benefit, rather than just shrugging and saying well I don't like it, so therefore I'll just find something I do.

There is a difference, basically between wanting to improve, and just posting stuff to get nice comments and feel better about yourself, which is just looking for validation, but may not ever help you improve. Basically, self-publishing yourself on WW, and then self-promoting and hoping you get more and more validation, and then after your 50th rejection you can get together and say "Oh God aren't these agents all just awful bloodsuckers only interested in the next Harry Potter," or "Well, its the industry isn't it? All they want is stories about death and swearing, they certainly don't want my 400,000 word MSS which tries to bring back old fashioned story telling, you know, all this gubbins about rules, and guidelines, and 'good' or 'bad' writing..." or whatever other random lie brings them comfort

I'm saying I think we all suffer when Site Experts feel there is no point in commenting because people refuse to accept criticism, then others bundle in, bleating on about how we have to be nice, and if you don't like it, don't crit it. And the SE is treated with no respect, because people don't want to improve, they want validation. They want to believe they know better, because after all, its only writing isn't it? I mean everyone's got a novel in them, and the first one is always autobiographical, so it's just a piece of piss really. Any old moron can get a best seller, all these SE pretending they know better, just trying to look good by giving us negative feedback. Just get a pen and paper and away you go...

It is like a teacher being told by all his pupils, and their parents, yes well I appreciate you may think you know what you are talking about, but actually I disagree and refuse to learn anything in this lesson thanks.

Pete,

i suppose it depends on the standard of the author - when i first joined and wasn't sure about show and tell, for example, i found people's suggestions invaluable. Even now i find it useful.

Whereas i can see, for a more experienced writer, this might prove unnecessary.

Casey

Pete

I don't think Dav's being dense, because I am sure he understands your point as well as I do. You only crit stuff you like - simple.

His point, my point and the point of others is that most members on this site want their work critiqued and the only way that process can work is if members critique the stuuf they read, whether they like it or not.

After all, the very reason one likes or dislikes a piece must be worthy of comment? And I also agree with the sentiment that trying to identify why you like or dislike a piece can give you a better understanding of writing and therefore improve your own writing. It's a win/win...hopefully.

The only downside for me is that you stop seeing 'a story' or 'a novel', but just writing - a string of words that work/don't work/could be better.

Having said that, I respect your choice not to comment on stuff you don't like, but I think it is missing the point of this site. I think my failing is that I don't read enough and don't crit enough, but that's a whole other thread.

And Dav, sorry, I'm not into spandex. Gives me Betty Swollocks.

Chin Chin

Kev n Beads -

That's a no isn't it? To the Fantastic Three I mean...

...feckin knew it. My arch enemy, Betty Swallocks, will just have to wait.

No, that's fine, honestly, I'll just find some other use for all this spandex I rushed out to buy. Make a nice fish pond cover/insulator I expect.

The stetson will always come in handy tho...

I think you should grow a beard and join up with George Lucas, Francis Ford Coppola and Steven Spielberg to form the Fantastic Facialy Fearsome Forgeing Film Four and some more Fs.

Aii?

I'd give the F3's a go young Davy - spandex and BGeee beards as well come to that.

Might even find me in the same room as David Dickinson and Dale Winten - we could be the Tantastic 3.

A very pale washed out Kev - where's my spray on!!!