Am I alone in finding it difficult to provide constructive feedback on uploads in the archive?

Geoff

In what sense? If you're having difficulty in actually posting it, then I've just managed to post a test message on an archive entry.

If you're struggling to come up with constructive feedback in the first place, that's another matter.

As you probably know yourself, Geoff, any comment is of interest to the author and what you consider to be of little help may be of much value to the writer.

Casey

If it's lack of time that's stopping you, I heartily empathise. But I get the impression that you're referring to something technical about the site.

Hi all,

My actual problem is taking what I don't like and making it into something useful.

I tend to read a lot of stuff in the archive but just end up not commenting because my comments wouldn't tend to be very positive. I know why I don't like the piece but then turning it into something useful as opposed to just saying I didn't like that, that's not convincing etc just seems to be something I lack. Which is a little worrying as I'd consider myself a writer and yet cannot phrase these things in an effective way.

Well, I think not commenting is the honourable thing to do if really truly nothing constructive comes to mind, and you can't bear to post a 'loved it' when you didn't.

You can always look at others' comments, and agree or disagree with them, by way of some real input: apart from anything else, that gives you some ways in to the piece which you might not have found on your own.

I think the key if you do want to say something helpful is in trying to work out what the writer's trying to do, and acknowledging that first. It's usually fairly obvious what a piece is trying to be, however much it falls short of success. You can then be frank - in a friendly way - in presenting some suggestions as to what's getting in the way of the piece succeeding.

And always with a humble recognition that you may have completely Not Got It. There's nothing makes a commenter look more foolish than them tearing into a piece when they've completely missed the point. (If you feel you haven't got it, you can always say so, because that's information worth the writer's having: they may need to make the raison d'etre of the piece clearer. But it may be at least partly your failure, not theirs.)

This takes time, of course: longer than a hatchet job, and much much longer than a 'lovely, darling'. But it'w what really helps the writer.

Emma

I find the hardest part of an archive piece that I don't like is to finish reading it. So many pieces of writing some of you have slaved over, but I barely get past the first paragraph, because it hasn't 'caught my eye', or I can see already that I dislike the style, or subject matter.

I'm trying to get over this, because the more I analyse other people's writing, the more able I am to find fault with it, and by extention, with my own writing.

So I'm trying to read things in their entirety, and then take one paragraph at a time and see if there's something in it that I can point to and say 'this could have been done better'. Even in pieces I actually liked, just to save me from the ego-massaging comments like 'I really liked this, end of message'.

It's a discipline, and one I'm not even close to claiming competence at, much less mastering.

I agree with Emma. Criticism shouldn't really be about whether you personally like something or not, although it is useful if you don't like something to examine what it is that makes you not like it and see whether that is relevant to the writer or not.

It is about examining what that person is trying to do and judging whether they have succeeded in that or not. For example, if you feel alienated from a character is it because you are supposed to be, or is it because there is something in the writing that is not working. If you are bored or don't want to finish it - why? Is there no conflict? Is the writing-style wooden? And the constructive side of the criticism is merely to identify that and offer possible pointers/solutions/things to think about - ie identifying possible conflict/drama that could be emphasised etc.

Coming from theatre, I also think it is important to think about audiences. Having reviewed lots of theatre (much of which is inevitably not going to be my cup of tea) it is important to think of what the thing is trying to do, who it is aimed at and whether it succeeds in those aims and why or why not. (For example, there's not much point in complaining about hammy acting or bad puns in pantomime when that is part of their nature.) Similarly the books my 3 year old niece relates to aren't necessarily what I relate to - although there are good books that do both, there are also good books about things like the emotional impact of losing a favourite toy that were hugely important to me (and now her) when I was small, but not now. They are still good books if they tap into something real and achieve what it sets out to do - in this case, creating an emotionally engaging story for a small child.

Obviously those are clearcut examples, but hopefully illustrate the point.

In reviewing the big rule was never to mention yourself, but I don't agree with that, I think it is sometimes good to go sorry but I don't like this style/world view because of X or Y and I have to declare myself now. At least then people know how to read your criticism - usually in a limited way.

I think examining things you don't like can be useful in examining what you are trying to do and why.

Yes, there's definitely a place for 'this isn't my cup of tea, but it is done well/badly in this way...'

The other thing is that to a frightening extent we're all trained by school to look for the negatives in things, so that's what we first see. But as any parent will tell you, praise for doing good things is a much more effective teaching tool than blame for the bad ones - even though you have to do that too.

Most of the time a writer doesn't know that something they've written works, or why, any more than they know what doesn't and why. So it's just as helpful to tell them what works for you as what doesn't, even if it's many fewer things. Not in a blank 'loved it' way, which isn't any help, but in a detailed way - a word or phrase or character that catches you, however little the rest does. It also helps to clue you in to what the writer's trying to do, as has been discussed, and it's when you've worked that out that you can really start to be helpful.

Emma

This whole thread has been extremely interesting and useful to read. I recently put up a piece of writing for critique for the first time and was genuinely surprised by how helpful I found the comments that people were kind enough to make. There is no doubt that the piece of writing in question is a great deal better now.

I did, however, recognise that some of the comments were not the kind that I would have made on someone else's work - not because I wouldn't want to, or because they weren't right, but because the points raised wouldn't have occured to me. I wouldn't have been looking for - and therefore wouldn't have noticed - the things that others had spotted. I also, like Geoff, find that it isn't always easy to put either my dislike or indifference (when these occur) or my reasons for them into words - at least partly because I don't want to offend or discourage someone who's put a lot of work into producing something that I just can't get excited about, but which obviously means a great deal to them. In these cases, I tend to take the path of least resistance and simply not comment, something I know I should try to change.

I do think that Insane Bartender is right - this is a discipline at which I should improve with practice (I hope!) and which should in turn help me to improve my own writing at the same time.

Snowcat

I feel that on WW there's only any point in critting a piece if you like it, however faulted or incomplete or badly written. I think you have to want to help make the piece work. Otherwise, why spend the time?

Pete

I find if i don't like a piece, if it doesn't excite me, i still crit it from the technical point of view - typos, grammar, repetition etc, as i still feel this is useful to someone.

Also, don't undervalue actual criticism. The first piece i ever uploaded was dire and someone (i am eternally grateful to!) had the confidence to imply so. If it weren't for them, if they had tried instead to find something good to say about it, i might still be working on that blessed piece now.

Casey

If you're in a group, then really you owe it to your other group members to crit openly and honestly, and if you think something doesn't work then say it. People need to take criticism, and accept it, else how will we ever help each other improve?

Just picking things you like is completely counter-productive and basically makes this site about as useful as a big scrap book that we can stick anything we want in without anyone pointing out to us what is going wrong with our writing.

It annoys me that attitude, because I'd rather have harsh criticism, than someone not commenting because they're scared of hurting my feelings.

I think people should accept that of you click "Go on, I can take it" then you MEAN that. You CAN take it, and therefore if someone wants to say "this isn't working very well", even that "this sucks, you need to work on X to make it better", they can, ands we can benefit from it.

Otherwise its just a bit pointless. At the end of the day, I will take all comments I receieve into account when editing and I'd prefer constructive criticism, because it helps me. It's great if people like something I've written, I love compliments too, but I'd hate to think someone held back because they don't like writing negative things.

So why don't we commit to marking how we want our work critt'ed HONESTLY.

If you can't take it, don't click "Go on...", just click the other one: "Please don't hurt me, come and play in the meadow with this big fluffy bunny, and lets tell each other we're both great" or whatever it is.

That would seem fair enough to me, then people who accept they ain't going to be on the Booker Prize list quite yet can get the tools they need to learn to write better, and get something REALLY important out of this site, and maybe they can move onwards and upwards, and anyone who doesn't want that kind of help, can just use WW as a forum to self publish their stuff online, for want of a better word (publish I mean, not online) and as Terry so correctly pointed out recently, get the validation they crave to carry on writing.

So if we all agree that "Go on..." means what it says, it's serious stuff, you will get some harsh words (in terms of criticism I mean), then we can all get what we want and need out of this brilliant site. In the words of Saint James of Saville:

Howzabout that then?

Yeh, absolutely Davy. Like i say, a harsh crit when i first joined was the best thing that could have happened to me.

However, saying that, i don't see the need to do these things brutally and i always try and end a crit on a positive note. If i don't like the content, i'll try to find something good to say about the writing technique and vice versa. However skilled or unskilled we are i feel we all need some degree of encouragement.

Casey

I think 'this sucks', on its own, is as unhelpful as 'this is wonderful' on its own. There's no help to be got from generalisations: it has to be specific, and the more specific you can be about what works and what doesn't the more the writer can jump off from it: find their own solutions to the problems. And isn't that what writers want critting for?

There's no virtue in harshness per se: if a criticism hurts enough by virtue of how it's expressed - and everyone's sensitivity is set at a different level, which is particuarly hard to judge online - then all that happens is that the writer blanks out the criticism all together, and can't benefit from whatever core of truth there is in the it.

As a critquer, of course you mustn't say something's good, when it isn't. But I think the implied idea of many discussions of this topic is that harshness=truth and kindness=lies, and that is utterly false and completely misses the point of how teaching works. You can do a lot more good by trying to understand what the writer's up to, and explaining why they're not succeeding, than by distancing yourself from the work and them and telling them something's crap. Even if it is.

There is something you can honestly say is good about every piece of writing on this site. I promise you. If you can't see the good thing, however small, that says quite a lot about your lack of discernment and analytical skill as a writer. That's why critiquing is so good for your own work: it makes you think that much harder about what you do yourself.

Emma