I was thinking there are certain things that come up in WW time and time again for example POV and Voice and I was wondering if there could be somewhere on the site where these ideas are briefly listed, perhaps with explanations by the experts. I know it always comes up in crits but it seems to me that it would save endless repetition and definitions and misunderstanding for some of the basic terms and ideas to be listed in a separate area and then these can be referred to by critters for beginners (check out page blah on POV for example), dipped into by those visiting the site and be easily found (because you can't easily look up things in the forums).

It strikes me that there are certain areas the forums aren't ideal for. I keep visiting the exercises forum with interest and there's very rarely anything on it. Wouldn't another page on the site for some standard exercises to help with certain problems (you know finding your character, automatic writing, POV switches etc) be helpful?

Just a thought.

Showbell,

I've sent you a WWmail about this. I have a lot to say on the subject, but not publicly. Some issues are best discussed outside an open access forum. Believe it or not, there are people on this site who will comment on every subject posted, whether or not they have anything interesting or relevant to say about it.

Terry

Not so long ago I suggested a FAQ forum, where each question/subject could have its own thread. One of the objections was that people would post their own ideas, regardless of whether they were accurate or not. My view was that it’s happening already – the difference being that the threads are scattered so, as you say, difficult to find, and they're repeated over and over again.

Sadly, DB and Co weren’t keen on the idea, so nothing came of it.

Terry, I’d be interested in your views if you feel like sharing them?

Dee

I think it's a good idea, but I agree that if people can post any old thing then it will degrade - and if people can post comments, ("I have no opinion and nothing to add, but I'd like to comment anyway...") it will be no better than a thread on the subject.

What we need is a literary database of tools and techniques that will work similar to Wikipedia. If pages can link to similar examples, that would be useful to, but the key to Wikipedia is that although experts can edit and add, useless comments are edited out.

One method for doing this is to have a rating system, whereby readers can rate a post in the database and give it a plus or negative (-5 to +5) depending on how useful/informative the piece is. If, after say, ten votes, the post is still in the negative numbers, it get's deleted. There must be a minimum number of votes to avoid someone killing posts before anyone else can view them; similarly, members will only be able to vote once per post (but there may be several posts per subject)

Does that sound bloody brilliant or what?

Colin M

Just to hammer it home, posts saying "Great, really useful" will be deleted.

Dee,

I've sent you an email. I am keen on sharing my thoughts but not, as I said, publicly. In the past when I've done this, the resulting flak, wiseacring, moaning, objecting, and self-righteous indignation that's come back as a result has not been quite offset by the few genuine responses from open-minded and serious people.

Terry

I was thinking about what you suggested Dee, but I agree with Colin that for it to be useful and easily accessible having just threads isn't going to work, although I suppose you could have a heading on POV for instance with explanation, examples, demonstrations that is permanent and then a related discussion forum for anyone wanting to discuss it further. But not sure how many people are really going to be discussing these things in a forum way. I think Colin's idea of tools and techniques and exercises like wikipedia would be fantastic. Something people could read if starting off (or if people are stuck they could refer to to get them going again!!) I think it would be a brilliant resource.

Further to that idea, could be recommended books with a rating system. Particularly ones about writing. I have read millions of these things and most I have found to be a total waste of time. However, there are a couple that I found that were really good and I would recommend, and, again, they are great things to dip into. Again, sometimes things are mentioned in the forums (like books on editing) but it is never collated together so it can be used.

The mention of Wikipedia in this context prompted me to do a quick browse in the area of writing techniques. There is already a considerable body of articles in this area, including articles on 'Show not Tell', 'Exposition' and so on. I didn't see one on Point of View. Rather than trying to recreate what's already in development in the Wiki world, one approach might be to provide external links from WW to relevant Wikipedia articles and, where these are missing or deemed inadequate, for the various WW experts to add their thoughts to Wikipedia on particular subjects.
It's late, maybe a crazy idea...
Tony

It's very easy to get lost in reading articles about writing, or even attending writing courses, and unwittingly be avoiding the point. The point being, How do I really improve my work? There is an awful lot of waffle about How to Write, e.g. someone I know well has just written a book on how to write bestsellers, when she herself has only ever written well-crafted children's books that have a small readership, i.e. she's never had any inclination herself to write a bestseller (and probably doesn't have the ability to anyway).

From my experience, there are two necessary factors for a writer to really develop: a willingness to do whatever it takes, with good heart (very important), and to find someone who can help him. How do you do that? Well, if you have enough desire and commitment, you'll find the right help. Personally, I don't believe you'll get it by spending a pleasant week in the country on one of these courses where a couple of writers set a few little exercises, then all gather round the fire in the evenings for some jolly readings.

So, I don't have much inclination to add my thoughts to Wikepedia. What would be the point? We have writers on this site who constantly add their thoughts to any subject that arises, but what actual difference does it make to anyone? As I add my thoughts to the site right now, I'm aware that what I'm saying will be ignored or dismissed by most people who read it. But then I'm only really interested in the very small number of people who are actually serious about becoming good writers.

Terry

Hey hey hey Terry

Now that IS negative. Why is it so bad of us to want to improve the information and help available on the site? I originally asked the question because I felt that there was the odd bit of technical stuff that gets totally lost in the forums , whereas if some of the common technical terms could be listed and explained somewhere it would save time, repetition, and reach more people on the site, rather than the individual who asked the question and the people who kindly answered it (perhaps in 2003!)

I still think simple articles (perhaps with attached forum threads if people wanted that) under Articles could be all it takes. At the moment the articles are more about how to present manuscripts and whether you need an agent and all that, rather than technique.

There has not been a huge amount of response to this thread though (thanks for those who did) which I found a bit disappointing so perhaps there is no demand...

I personally would have liked such a resource.

This is exactly why I don't like to get too involved in the forums these days . . .

Look, there is nothing negative about what I'm saying. But the fact is, a person can take an amateur or a professional approach to whatever it is they're doing – writing, football, music, anything.

The amateur approach is to read lots of articles, How To books, etc, convincing oneself that improvement is being made. The professional approach is to find stuff that actually moves you on. Yes, some of this will exist in articles, books, etc, but a lot of it won't. The reason being – and I know this will only make sense if you're actually primed in this direction – that real help needs to be specific, not general. POV is a good example: you can read every article going on the subject but still not learn the lesson of it. And that's because the ability to use POV effectively is partly to do with the author's particular psychology and emotional make-up; and that's something he probably won't be aware of, that requires someone to be able to see it and help him to work with it. Which requires the writer, of course, to be open to doing so, and with a good heart about the struggle involved.

Well I would argue that the writer should be a good editor of their own work also and that knowledge of things like POV and other common areas people have problems with, allows one to mull over these ideas when editing own work.

Also, there are complete beginners on this site who might not have encountered these terms who might find explanation of these terms useful.

Anyway, it was all just a suggestion. I know there are lots of crappy How to books but there are some helpful ones. I don't ignore anything of use, whatever the source.

It is true that there will always be some who dream of writing a book but don't enjoy the actual writing and may prefer going on courses to actually completing a book. But that is not everyone. I agree that a good critiquer is the most helpful thing of all. But it can be difficult to find like-minded people to help sometimes. People are in all sorts of different situations and may not even know anyone interested in writing. I met another writer at a festival and now we meet up and crit each other's work which has been very positive. She lives round the corner but I probably wouldn't have met her if I hadn't gone along to a writer's event.

Snowbell and Terry,

the thing is though, there are amateurs on this site, in any profession everyone starts off as an amateur and progresses to professionalism, surely?

I would certainly appreciate a forum linking to resources explaining the basics on POV, Voice etc, but Terry, i can understand why someone in your position would find this useless.

I started writing more or less from scratch early 2005 and wouldn't have 'got' any specific advice on POV until reading several of the How To books and articles i have read during the year which have given my a shove in the right direction. And i think there are many such beginners on this site who, like myself a couple of years ago, are completley clueless about such matters and would find any really specific advise intimidating until they had got their own head around the nuts and bolts.

So i do thnk such a forum would be useful, but to how many members on the site i don't know.

Casey

<Added>

Glad to see you out and about, Terry:)

Just to be clear, I meant 'amateur' and 'professional' in terms of attitude, not experience. An absolute beginner can very much have a professional attitude, which is to aim for mastery of the craft, however long it takes.

But apologies - I think the run of this thread has got a little confused, and probably by me. I'm not saying How To books, articles, etc, are useless, or that it's necessarily a bad idea to have some sort of advice centre on the site.

However, I'm not sure it's a good idea to collect together – if it's possible anyway – the various bits of advice that people have given on this site, 'experts' included. The reason being that much of that advice is, at best, generic and at worst just a form of the person saying, in effect, "I'm all right, Jack." For instance, I've seen advice given on WW that advocates changing POV within scenes, or that passive writing is okay at times, or that switching tenses is fine. . . . All of which may (or may not) be true for that particular author working in his or her particular field. But it's probably useless advice for the specific person asking it. Another example: recently, someone asked whether she should write short stories instead of just novels. Lots of wiseacring came back, much of it to the effect that it's fine to work on novels alone if that's what you want to do. My experience, however, from working with a lot of new writers, is that the vast majority would be better served by starting with short stories, so they can learn basic story structure, main character motivation, pace, tone, etc. Specifically, I don't suppose anyone answering that person actually knew anything about her writing.

Believe me, if you have a specific forum for 'advice', it will get loaded up with casual opinions, self-advertising and general thoughts. There'll also be some great advice, it's true, but filtering it out could be a tricky task. The reason I spend more time critiquing than foruming on this site is because I believe that's the best way to give advice: to work with a specific author's writing.

Terry

I can see where you're coming from Terry. That was my thread, by the way, about short stories!
Yes,i can certainly say that when i first joined the site i accepted most of the advice i was given (and a lot of it was very helpful) on face value, but - and this has taken me 6 months of very active membership - i now still sit back and sift through the responses more, and may even ignore them, something i didn't do before.

Like i said, i do feel this is an excellent site for beginners who are a blank slate as far as writing skills are concerned - i am grateful for all the opinions i've been given - but i can see how more specific advice is probably essential at a higher level, when the writer has more knowledge to be able to deal efficiently with personal, constructive criticism.

Casey