The scarf is Gordon's.

or

The scarf is Gordons.

Also,

Let's watch this when we get back to Russ's. - or Russ' - ???? I think opinion varies on this one.

I'm just wondering about these sentences where the apostrophe bit is at the end of the sentence.

Ant opinions appreciated.

Thanks

Casey

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Oops, Any

I'm not an Ant but hopefully my opinions are still appreciated

The scarf is Gordon's

is right. It's possessive, even if it is at the end of the sentence.

For the second one, I also think opinion is divided. I would opt for Russ's in this instance, because it looks ugly having an apostrophe next to a full stop.

I remember many years ago my tutor on my journalism course telling me that you should still add 's after possessive nouns that end in an 's' but I have a tendency to ignore his advice depnding on what looks best (and I correct people's grammar for a living. As yet, I've not been sacked for this offence!)

Guess it's a style thing, so there's no right or wrong answer for that one.

Char x

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Hum, that should have been 'depending' not 'depnding!'

I would go for Gordon's, but I disagree with Char on the second one - sorry, and would always use Russ'. I think otherwise it looks terrible having s 3 times.

I think the preferred version nowadays is Russ' too, but at the end of the day, go with whatever you feels is right, but make sure you are consistent obviously and use the same throughout.

Katerina

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FEEL not feels, blooming s has gone to my head now ;)


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Hey, why can't I do a winking smiley. It is the ; followed by ) isn't it?

Well it doesn't work on my pooter, wonder why not?

;) ;) ;) ;) :)

LOL, Charlotte!

Thanks both of you, at least the Gordon's bit is straightforward.

I seem to remember on another thread there was a difference of opinion about words ending in s... i guess i'll have to decide what i think 'feels' best.

Thanks again

Casey x

Katerina, if you called me a 'pooter', i don't think i'd let the winky face work...give your machine a bit of respect

Gordon's

Just looked up possesive apostrophes and S for words that end in S in the bible - aka Hart's Rules.

Names that end in s, z or x have 's in the usual way:

Bridget Jones's Diary, Chris's Diary, Russ's Diary.

BUT where the second s would make it awkward to pronounce - usually if the stress of the name isn't on the last syllable - you can leave off the final s:

Mr Williams' Diary not Mr Williams's Diary

Harrods Food Hall not Harrods's Food Hall

and some it's up to you:

Nicholas's Diary is okay but so is Nicholas' Diary

NB: 'Jesus's name' is colloquially correct, but 'Jesus' name' is 'an acceptable archaism' in liturgical use.

Emma

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Interesting that even though we're talking about print, Hart defines it in terms of reading and pronunciation, not how it looks, despite the three Ss in Russ's

Very helpful, Emma, thank you, that gives me some sort of guideline.

Mind you, now i'm getting paranoid:

a) Is this yours?

b) Is this your's?

a) is correct, isn't it? (why does doubt always creep in when you start to think about something...)

Casey

hers, its, yours, theirs don't have 's; they're possessive pronouns in themselves, so don't need a possessive apostrophe as well. But one I always think is the same - one's - (very Prince Charles) does need one.

If this stuff is something you get fussed about, as I do (and there are so much more interesting things to fuss about, aren't there!) it's worth begging, borrowing or stealing one of the following:

Hart's Rules (OUP)
Copy Editing by Judith Butcher (CUP)

which make it all very clear - Hart more comprehensive, Butcher more user friendly, I've ended up with both. The rules don't change all that fast, so 2nd hand would probably do fine, if you don't need the absolutely latest info on how to punctuate citations for internet material.

Some people find the Oxf Dict for Writers and Editors really helpful but it never has the word or problem I want, and is pretty limited on punctuation. But I think OUP do it in a package with Hart, which might be neat.

Emma

Grrrrr please someone tell me why I cannot do a winky! ;}

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Hmm thought maybe a different bracket might help, but it didnt.;)

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PS, sorry but I don't see the difference in Jones and Williams, so why the difference in apostrophes?

Hmm, yes I also don't 'get' Williams vs Jones. Sound the same to me. I wish there was a clear-cut rule for this sort of thing! Hate ambiguity!

Katerina - LOL with your 'why can't I do a winky?'. Sounds like my three-year-old godson...must try to rise above toilet humour!!

Not sure why you can't do one though. I've noticed that my smileys when I'm critiqueing don't come out either, although they work fine on the forums...

It's one of life's little mysteries

I think Hart's point about Williams' vs. Jones's is the stress in how it's said, because in Williams the unstressed second syllable sounds awkward with the final 's sound: 'Mr Williamses book', where as with the stress on the only syllable of Jones means 'Mr Joneses book' sounds okay.

Emma

Emma’s right (isn’t she always? )

In my view, it all boils down to how you hear the name with or without the '. I'm currently working on a novel where one of the main characters is called Lewis. Because the ‘s’ at the end of his name is stressed, Lewis’ didn’t look as if it would sound right… so I've used Lewis’s.

I do this for a living as well (I'm a "technical writer") and my experience is that many of these rules come down to a choice of style guide. We mostly publish to American standards (bah!) so Chicago Manual Of Style is usually the final arbiter. For the British rules I normally go to Fowler's Modern English Usage. Some other books I find invaluable are The King's English by Kingsley Amis, The Little, Brown Handbook published by Little,Brown and of course Eats, Shoots and Leaves by Lynne Truss.

Emma, I've never heard of Hart's Rules or Judith Butcher's book. This makes me feel an awful fraud so I must track them down.

Just to add to the confusion: Fowler advises "Gordon's" and "Russ's". There are no get-out clauses for words ending in double "s" or indeed disyllables with a weak second syllable. The only occasion where it is "customary" to elide the final "s" is when the last syllable of the name is pronounced "iz" as in Bridges' or Moses'. Jesus' is "an acceptable archaism". (Hey let's not bring religion into this...!)

Over to Kingsley Amis who adds "Keats' poems" to the list of allowed exceptions, and provides this lovely set of variations on the theme of Jones:

1 - He is staying with Jones.
2 - He is staying at Jones's.
3 - He is staying with the Joneses.
4 - He is staying at the Joneses'.

He's very particular on point #3, pointing out that Charles and Diana are the Waleses and not the Wales's.
You get the feeling this particular solecism has annoyed him frequently.

Now if you want a real argument, is it "1960s" or "1960's". "DVDs" or "DVD's". The answers offered by various style guides might surprise you.





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Damn those italic tags.