Which is correct - bitterer or more bitter? I would use the latter but a colleague thinks the former. I'm sure there's a rule in there somewhere but I suspect there are lots of execptions.

It's the number of syllables; one wouldn't say beautifuller because there are three syllables in the adjective. However, what about carefuller??

It must be an absolute nightmare learning English!

joanie

Well if ever there was a question for Fowler this is it.

and wot duz he sa you arsk ?

The adjectives regularly taking -er and -est in preference to more and most are: (a) most monosyllables (hard,rich,wise...) (b) disyllables in -y and -ly (angry,early,holy...) and trisyllabic negatives ending in -y (unholy, ignobly) (c) many disyllables with accents on the second such as polite, profound etc ... but with some exceptions such as antique, bizarre, secure (ending in -e) (d) no predicative adjectives such as afraid, alive, alone, aware (adjectives which cannot stand alone without a verb in front of them, as in "to be alive", "I am afraid") Beyond that, adjectives of three or more syllables require the periphrastic forms of more or most.

Phew. So as "bitter" is a disyllable with the first syllable stressed, no -y ending, and not predicative, Fowler recommends we use "more bitter".
And indeed "more careful".

But then Dickens says of Scrooge that "no wind that blew was bitterer than he" so take yer pick. "More bitter" would certainly have messed up the iambic meter.

Excellent! Thanks you so much for taking the time.

joanie

I think it really depends on what you think sounds correct.

'More bitter' and 'more careful' sounds much better than 'bitterer' or 'carefuller'. If you say bitterer and carefuller out loud, it sounds a bit like someone who cannot talk properly doesn't it.

It's the sort of thing my 7 year old niece would say for instance.

So, going with what sounds right is the best thing to do I feel.

Katerina

Yep, that'll do it. If you're ever not sure which one of two possible English constructions is correct, just say them both out loud and then guess.

Thanks, Katerina and griff. You're right; I knew that 'more bitter' was right but, as I said, a colleague made me think. It was actually a question raised by a French 'friend of the colleague' who wanted to be precise in a French to English translation.

Gut reaction is the best, but how do you explain it to a foreigner??

joanie

Gut reaction is best, but only because you've assimilated the right rule. Most of the population's guts think, 'between you and I' is correct, after all.

Emma

Yes exactly, I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek above. Of course it's no good just guessing - if you want to know what is actually correct, not just what sounds right to you, then you need to go and look it up in a reference book.

Explaining English to foreigners is very good for one's own. An au pair with very good English asked me when you'd say 'Try to light the fire' and when 'Try lighting the fire.'

A wonderfully subtle distinction that we all use all the time without even thinking about it.

Emma

I was talking to someone recently about a very aggrieved English student (possibly Croatian I can't remember) who was quite rightly baffled by the notion that first we chop the tree DOWN and then we chop it UP...

I teach French, and whenever I hear "French is stupid; what's the point? I reel off lots of instances where English is stupid, like rough, through, although, cough, bough, etc.

English must be a nightmare, like I said!

between you and I

drives me mad! I often hear similar from members of the English Department at work.

joanie

quite rightly baffled by the notion that first we chop the tree DOWN and then we chop it UP...

Yup, these ('phrasal verbs', they seem to call them now) drive everyone non-English mad, but are the most gorgeously flexible part of the Eng Lang, because the two parts can move independently around in the syntax. And 'put', say, means all sorts of different things, depending on what it's with and even then it changes: put on (fake or don), put off (postpone or disgust), put out (disconcert or extinguish), put up (have to stay or tolerate) and so on...

Emma

baffled by the notion that first we chop the tree DOWN and then we chop it UP...

That did make me laugh!!

I remember once having to tell some EFL students that you can't "plug out" the radio...and not being able to give a good reason why not.

And as joanie said, that's before the poor darlings have had to tackle the staggering illogicality of our spelling.

Emma

'Try to light the fire' and when 'Try lighting the fire.'

okay, can someone please explain to me the

wonderfully subtle distinction

cos it's too subtle for me...

sam