I'm about to embark on writing a second novel, and want to avoid making the same mistakes I made the first time around with regard to structuring the story, plotting, planning etc - my mistake having been the failure to spend adequate time on these elements before I launched into the writing.

This new novel is likely to live or die by its plotting (it's a crime novel) and I find myself strangely tempted by those software packages, such as New Novelist, which promise to help stucture the story in painstaking detail before the actual writing kicks off. Am I looking for an easy way out, or is there a benefit in the discipline imposed by such software packages? The average price seems to be £30, but I'm loath to shell out if WW members have had poor experiences with packages like this, or if the consensus is simply do it the hard way! I can see that the learning curve, once conquered, is worth the sweat. As you can tell, I'm in two minds and would welcome advice, experience or simply yea/nay comments. Thanks!

Tiger

Initially wonderful, ultimately shit. That goes for Writer's Cafe too, which is slightly better (and a lot more useful).

Nothing beats pencil and paper, mate.

No experience of them, but a)I haven't heard anything about them that tempted me and b)all programs take five times more preliminary fiddling with than pencil and paper, and then you have to input all the info.

FWIW, I use a spreadsheet to draw out a big chart with columns for the different strands of the story, and which parts of the backstory are revealed when, and the rows are the chapters. I also keep track of times and dates in the story and the wordcount of each chapter on it. I make a spreadsheet of all the characters' ages because my plots always slither about in time, and it saves re-doing sums.

Emma

Many thanks, Emma and Mark. Emma, the spreadsheet idea was excellent - I think that's what I'm feeling the want of: a 'formal' way of structuring my notes and sticking to time-lines etc. I'll definitely give it a shot.

Tiger

tiger, I print it off and fill in my plans in pencil, then biro what actually happens when I've written the chapter. Means I can have the whole structure parked reassuringly at my elbow while I'm writing. I have loads of other sets of notes with characters and research, but that's the core of it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/09/02//do0205.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2006/09/02/ixopinion.html

is sort of relevant, and might amuse you.

Emma

Thanks, Emma. I've bookmarked the article to read tomorrow.

Tiger

all programs take five times more preliminary fiddling with than pencil and paper, and then you have to input all the info.

but you still play about with a spreadsheet??? Er... what's the difference?

Actually, I can answer that question - the main difference is that this type of software is basically a spreadsheet, but simplified and tuned for the use of a writer. Storylines (part of Writers' Cafe) looks like a corkboard, but an infinitely long corkboard, on which you place little cards. The cards contain character or plot info and you can continually rearrange them in their timeline or plot/subplot lines. A lot more fun than a spreadsheet and a great way to avoid any real writing.

Colin

I hear what you're saying, Colin, particularly:

and a great way to avoid any real writing

but in fact my problem is the opposite. I want to start writing - in fact, I HAVE started writing (8,000 words before I even had the plot firm in my head) - but I know from experience that without a proper, structured plot in place, I am going to end up tying myself in knots when I write this story. The spreadsheet idea appeals to me because it enforces a discipline. I'm sure by the time I've written 3 or 4 books(!), I'll be able to dive straight in after a month or so of note-making. But I feel I need a safety-net at this stage.

Tiger

All I mean is that you can play and play and play with Storylines, which isn't a bad thing. It might be just what you need but it's a tool, nothing more. It's a digital, editable wall full of post-it notes.

New Novelist, on the other hand, offers some good plot structures and is very good at helping new writers realise the importance of plot and how complex it can be. When you match your own story to their examples you get an idea of where it might fall down, but is it worth the money??? I paid for it, and for a while I thought it was, so it might be - but it isn't the Holy Grail, and won't do the work for you or give you tutorials.

The easiest way is to try them and make your own mind up. One man's meat, etc.

Colin

Thanks, Colin, I'm really grateful for your insight - just what I needed: someone who'd tried it and knew its limitations.

Tiger

Well, Colin, no, I don't play about with the spreadsheet, I just tweak the same grid for each novel, then everything else is pen and paper. The ages spreadsheet is one boring chore at the beginning, auto-filling in years and ages and then it's done: the new novel has something like 40 characters whose ages I'll need to know across 40 years in one century, and a 150 years in another, so it's much-needed.

It makes sense that the novel-planning programmes are spreadsheet based. I can't imagine using one, I guess because what I want is so specific that I'd spend more time fine-tuning it than I would working from scratch.

Emma

<Added>

But I take the point that for new writers, being made to think of a plot in terms of structure, rather than just and... and... and... would be quite salutary.

My point was that you knocked computer-based writing tools in favour of pen and paper and then talk of using a spreadsheet. Both the same thing really as both require initial tweeking.

Your plan sounds good to me Emma. I'm starting something new and will give it a go.

It sound like a good format that can be adapted to suit the individual/work?

Actually I could do with running something similar re the timelines on the old novel as last time I thought about it I realised there was a glitch in the chronology...

Sarah

Colin, yes I see I seemed to be contradicting myself. I literally use a spreadsheet to draw the grid, no words, nothing more - could do it with pen and ruler, but it wouldn't be as neat.

Emma

<Added>

I realised there was a glitch in the chronology

Yes, I find it's helpful for these, and specially for things where the point of the plot is revealing the past: which of the characters and the reader knows what, at what stage, is hard to keep track of, so I might give that a column on its own. Also I've tried it with recurring features like dreams, chains of ideas or images, stages in someone's emotional development - anything that I need to help myself keep in play and keep relating back to the main plot. I even once had a small column for a dog I kept forgetting about.

Emma

They are a complete waste of money and time and effort (I've tried a couple of them and they take so much time to set up that you could have written half the novel by then!). I went to my local cheap stationers and bought an index card box - for about a fiver. Instead of the A, B, C's for the alphabetic name cards I change them to chapter numbers and insert cards when I think of an idea for each chapter. Then I can slot in to my hearts content and move things about without getting confused. When I get to that chapter I just take out the cards and shuffle them about until it's right. You can get different coloured cards for different people or characters and it means you can stick in that line you had to jot down on the back of a fag packet !
Much easier to keep track of and a lot less expensive.
Eve.