... by draft 4 it is vital that you get a second opinion before you run out of the energy / interest to make the changes that a third-party will inevitably make you see the need for

I’m not sure it’s wise to be quite so specific about this sort of thing. We all have to work at our own pace without additional pressure that we don’t feel comfortable with.

Dee

We all have to work at our own pace without additional pressure that we don’t feel comfortable with.

Apologies if it came across like that - it wasn't intended - another example of a writer (me) unable to edit his/her own work by not being able to second guess how it comes across to a reader!

My point, ignoring the numbers for when you do it, was that a single piece of good feedback from a well-chosen reader can bring a story forward much further in the few seconds it takes to say than a writer can achieve in several years writing in isolation. That's not to say you delegate all quality control to your editor, but (my opinion is) that writing without actively seeking feedback on a regular basis (regular for me is every few months...) is to ignore a hugely valuable source of inspiration and growth.

My point

, ignoring the numbers for when you do it, was that a single piece of good feedback from a well-chosen reader can bring a story forward much further in the few seconds it takes to say than a writer can achieve in several years writing in isolation.

Yes, that's definitely true (though I am with Dee - each to their own regarding progress-per-edit, given what defines a seprate "edit" is likely to differ widely on a writer by writer basis.

To give you an idea of where I am, edit 4 has been reached after 3 and a bit years of work, the first year of which was when I was writing full time on an MA course. As such, I got regular feedback from 15 people or so, not all of which was useful, hence my caution about taking it to external readers, as there is a danger you'll get get pulled in a lot of directions. This is not to say I don't value external readers - I do, but I very much agree that:

.. and it helps to be quite certain about what you want from them in the first place

It's no good, I've found, to give someone a stack o' A4 and say "whaddya reckon then?". You get better as writer by asking good questions of your readers/editors (I find).

I'm not quite sure what I was looking for with the original post, but it's certainly been nice working out my ideas about editing with other people

<Added>

EDIT: ack, quote tag in the wrong place. Sorry.

I'm sure it wasn’t intended, Gaius. I just wanted to make sure someone on their fifth secret edit wasn’t thinking they’d got it all wrong…

A single piece of feedback can improve a story, but it’s only one person’s opinion. The best method for me is an amalgam of opinions from several well-trusted people – which is why I value WW so much!

Dee

A habit I’m trying to enforce, is reading my stuff out loud. You’d be surprised how easy it is to spot stodgy prose or stilted dialog simply by reading it aloud.

Of course, this might get you a few odd comments form the rest of your family, and in my case, “Dad that makes no sense,” from my seven year old son!

Grinder

Yes, Grinder, I always read my dialogue out loud (much to the mystification and amusement of my housemate) to see how believable it is.

My editing habits tend to revolve around a whole load of doubt, and as I get more into my writing, the worse it seems to get. The problem is, when you've created a few stories and have a few 'wins' under your belt, you become aware of keeping up (or beating) the previous standard. The search for new metaphors and the horror that what you're writing you've written before become whole new concerns. So yes, doubt, attack and reconsolidation, and a lot of living to feed the imagination.

JB