So there's quite a lot of (great) writing advice on here, but at the moment, but I'm a bit more interested at the moment to see if anyone has any editing advice...

I'm currently reading through my magnum opus/magnificent octopus and finding it pretty difficult going; I've left it a couple of months since I finished the previous edit (number 4), so I am very familiar with the material, but I am still trying to see it as a reader - to answer those chestnut questions like 'do the characters make sense', 'would they really say that?', does it cohere as a whole thing and not just a bunch of scenes...

So, yeah, if anyone has any advice on editing/reading your own work, that would be very gratefully received :D

The key phrase here, for me, is 'finding it pretty difficult going'. If that's the case, even after putting it aside for two months, it sounds as if the problem could be on both the big and small scales. The theme of the book - what's it about - should be something you feel passionate about. If you don't, then it's a certainty your readers won't either. Theme powers plot, which in turn powers the characters, which in turn power the plot, which in turn energises the theme. If you find your own work difficult, it could be you've lost sight of the theme. It could also be that your prose is stodgy; however, that's usually also a result of the theme not firing the plot, etc.

Terry

It might, too, be worth following particular threads through - one read to see how well the mc's background is established, another to make sure his romantic relationship develops evenly, another to make sure the time frame hangs together logically, another to trace the way the theme of betrayal unfolds - that kind of process, where you're focussing on one layer at a time.

One of the things that can make it hard to keep going is that 'editing' covers a lot of different ways of looking at the work, and some of them are mutually exclusive. You need to look closely to watch for misplaced stitches and hold it at arms length to see how the blocks of colour relate to each other. So, I'd agree with Lammi - you might need to separate out the different processes, and look for one kind of thing at a time.

Another trick is for you or someone else to read it aloud - some if not all. Somehow, like leaving it alone for a while, you hear it afresh, and if it's someone else, they may have different insights which will clear your mind about it.

In the end, though, you do go dead to it, and there's not a lot you can do, except leave it for much, much longer than two months. It can help to read lots of good writing by others in the meantime, by way of cleansing your palate for your own.
Emma

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Or write something else in the gap, or do a course... It's amazing how tackling a new thing from scratch sharpens your tools for having another go at an old one.

One of the best pieces of advice I had – and I wish I could remember who I got it from – is, as Lammi says, to edit layer by layer.

Edit each thread individually to make sure they're sound, and then go through again checking that they weave together satisfactorily.

Do another edit checking your dialogue – is it realistic, have you used contractions where they're needed, are the characters’ voices suitably different.

Then edit for punctuation and typos – watch out for it’s/its, form instead of from, tow instead of two.

Finally, get someone else to read it, someone you trust to pay attention and be honest. Ask them to highlight places where they think you could have chosen a better word or sentence structure.

Those chestnut questions you're asking yourself – if you can't answer yes to them, and you can't identify why, maybe you should consider a professional critique.

Alternatively, start posting it on here and see what sort of feedback you get. It might be worth joining one of the novel-writing groups for peer support.

Good luck.

Dee

Thanks for the advice folks; I think "finding it tough going" was more me just being mopey and over-dramatic than presenting a serious diagnosis :p - I read a big chunk through this morning and was more than happy with how it seemed overall; the advice about doing multiple read-throughs with a different focus each time is interesting though, not really thought of doing that before. So that I might give a go, after my current general read-through. And thanks for reminding me to do the reading aloud!

As for giving it to people to read, I'm fairly cautious about that - I did the UEA course a couple of years ago, and what I learned was that it's better to take the piece to other people only when you feel quite sure of it yourself. I tend to think of pieces of writing as fragile things, and personally, I find they need time to toughen up before being presented to the world - if you give someone a big pile of A4 and ask for opinions you'll get a lot of advice, and it's important to know whose to consider and whose to disregard. You need (or at least I do) clear concpetions of what you're trying to do, or it's easy to be distracted by what seems relevant and helpful and may in fact be antithetical to your intentions...

Sifter, it's so true, and I'm interested that you discovered that on an MA. It is part of your development as a writer, to discover what your writing self needs and what it doesn't and what is harmful, and a structured course offers more different kinds of input to try. But the amount of damage - if any - students sustain on those course before they work it out is largely to do with how well the tutors handle workshops, I suspect. I was interested that my agent, who specialises in new writers, spoke of several good writers who she felt had been really damaged by the wrong MA environment. On the other hand, I and lots of others count their Masters as the best thing we ever did for our writing.

Emma

But the amount of damage - if any - students sustain on those course before they work it out is largely to do with how well the tutors handle workshops, I suspect. I was interested that my agent, who specialises in new writers, spoke of several good writers who she felt had been really damaged by the wrong MA environment. On the other hand, I and lots of others count their Masters as the best thing we ever did for our writing.

Good points, Emma - personally, a bit of both for me, I think; basically, yes, my MA was absolutely the best thing I ever did. Before it, I had written some short stories, and had an idea I wasn't too bad at fiction. Getting on the course, doing the course, gave those notions a definite shape, a purpose and direction. I felt like a writer. I also met some great people there - UEA certainly attracts excellent writers...

But equally, I think all the input you get from the seminars/workshops is like electricity; it can energise you, but it can also overload you. It's important to learn for yourself what advice to take in order to do what you want with your work, and in my experience, I don't think the tutors always did a brilliant job of getting that across.

And people are always going to vary in what voltage is their personal overload-point: how thin-skinned they are, how vulnerable. I think tutors should do their best to work out who only thrives on trenchant criticism, and who crumbles under it but blossoms when their work's discussed sensitively. Some tutors can and feel they should discern these different styles better than others, and - dare I say it - I think the gender divide is sometimes (only sometimes) part of the problem.

Emma

Yes, I definitely agree with you there; another point that took me a while to realise (and is something I am very glad I did realise) is that any piece of writing that has promise is going to touch on a lot of interesting themes - but you can't focus on every single one; you can't do everything with one piece of writing. When you get feedback from a lot of people, if you don't have your own solid conception of what you're trying to do, trying to take account of all those critiques will put a lot of pressure on you and your writing...

Hey

I think that doubting what you're doing creatively, is all part of doing something creatively? Like, the struggle and the art are the same thing, I think. My advice would be to follow your instincts and your deepest darkest passions, as Terry so excellently says. If you like it, chances are, someone else will too. It's all about communication really.

JB

any piece of writing that has promise is going to touch on a lot of interesting themes - but you can't focus on every single one;

I think this is really true. Have you noticed how the books of most established writers seem to get longer and longer - aka, more and more bloated. I have a theory that it's because their inevitable urge to focus on more and more isn't kept in check by a cold-blooded editor willing to say, 'there's too much stuff in here. Great stuff, but it needs cutting.' Either the editor doesn't dare piss of the Great Man (or woman) or the editor's also lost objectivity about the work.

follow your instincts and your deepest darkest passions

Yes. Writing a novel takes far too bloody long to spend that much of your life on anything you don't feel wholeheartedly about. Besides, your best work is the work that is most you. Mind you, that just shifts the question, because most of us have conflicting desires and self-images, and you need to work out who 'you' truly is in this context.

Emma

Have you noticed how the books of most established writers seem to get longer and longer - aka, more and more bloated. I have a theory that it's because their inevitable urge to focus on more and more isn't kept in check by a cold-blooded editor.... Either the editor doesn't dare piss of the Great Man (or woman) or the editor's also lost objectivity about the work.

Absolutely. I tried to read Rushdie's Shalimar the Clown earlier this year. Utterly Dreadful. I was reallty, really disappointed. Interesting that David Mitchell went followed the expansive Cloud Atlas with Black Swan Green, a more modest, coming-of-age tale - perhaps he was consciously trying to limit himself?

I think that doubting what you're doing creatively, is all part of doing something creatively?

Definitely :D Well put :D

Nobody can edit their own work as well as a well chosen somebody else and ...

I finished the previous edit (number 4)

... by draft 4 it is vital that you get a second opinion before you run out of the energy / interest to make the changes that a third-party will inevitably make you see the need for and ...

it's better to take the piece to other people only when you feel quite sure of it yourself

... by draft 4, you should be confident enough about what you want to achieve ...

it's important to know whose to consider and whose to disregard

... and the best way to achieve it is to choose your editors / readers very very carefully so that you can take their advice at face value and worry about what to do with it rather than why they are offering it to you ...

if you give someone a big pile of A4 and ask for opinions you'll get a lot of advice

... and it helps to be quite certain about what you want from them in the first place - just as there are no "complete" writers, there are no "complete" editors.