I've written a bit about this in the rejection pledge section, but basically, the overriding feedback my agent has had from publishers about Tash and Kev is that while there are lots of positives, it doesn't have a big enough plot. A few agents I subbed to also said similar - and our very own Terry Edge too!

So I am thinking about having a go at some editing, but I'm so used to being driven by characters, rather than plot that I don't know where to start!

How do you make a plot 'bigger'? Any advice much appreciated!

Cath

I always begin with a plot. It's the main idea that grips me, and then the characters are the dressing if you like. First, if you're really planning to do this, I'd find out exactly what these publishers think are the weak parts of the plot. If they've read and considered it, I'm sure they won't mind telling you. Second, try to be objective and read it yourself. What could be snappier? Is there a twist, etc?
Thirdly, don't despair. Rewrites are a royal pain in the ass, but in the end, they only make us stronger.

Any help you need with crits, let us know.

JB

Cath,

Is the problem that the main plot isn't big enough, or is it 'plotting' in general, meaning you haven't any sub-plots? There was a thread recently on how much importance should be placed on subplots.

Sammy

Cath, that’s bad news because they’re talking about a major rewrite here.

My writing is character-driven too, so I know the problem you're facing. As I haven’t read any of T&K (sorry but I don’t know anything about YA fiction) I can't suggest anything specific.

Can you introduce a new character, perhaps? Maybe some angle of the existing plot would have an impact on a relative or someone involved with the main characters? Sometimes just thinking about this effect can lead to a whole new thread. Obviously this would have to be knit into the main threads and wrap up neatly with them at the end – that’s why I'm thinking this is a big job you have.

Only other thing I could suggest is to upload the synopsis, and see if we can give you some ideas.

Dee

Cath
This is going to be a bit half-baked but hopefully might jog the memory of a wiser soul than me on here. Apparently there are 'rules' about plots that work and almost every successful story we come across, from the oldest fairytale to an episode of 24 (or the like) follows the same basic 'shape'. Some script writers talk about something called a 'beat sheet' (I think) which has certain things happening at certain times. I did a course where the tutor drew a strange kind of W graph that was the same principle, but haven't got a copy of it - sorry! Sorry also that this is so half-arsed! Hopefully someone else can take this from here!

Is this it?

The W graph of dramatic plot

Think of a W shape.

A is the top left
B is the first point of the W at the bottom
C is the middle of the top
D is the second point at the bottom
E is the top right

So as you draw the W you start at A, move down to B, up to C, down to D and finish on E.

AE – Intent. Protagonist desperately wants to achieve something, or has a problem he must overcome – i.e. beginning to end of story

AB – Barrier. The person and/or situation inhibiting the protagonist from achieving his goal

BC – Attempts to overcome. The protagonist attempts several times to overcome the barrier and achieve his goal. It often works well for there to be three definite attempts, with things becoming progressively worse with each one. Cause and effect should take us logically from one incident to the next. Reversals occur.

C – High point. It looks as if the protagonist is going to achieve his intent. Things look good at this point.

CD – Major rug pulling/catastrophe. The protagonist plunges to the lowest point of action. Success now seems completely out of his grasp. This is his darkest hour.

DE – Resolution. The protagonist may go on and through strength, bravery, intelligence or cunning achieve his intent. Some sort of unexpected, but logical, twist is usually involved.

That's the one - thanks Dee!
Sounds complicated, but it might be worth having a go, Cath.

Cath, it's a structural thing, obviously, but I think Dee's onto a good idea by thinking of adding another element and weaving it in. It might be worth talking to your agent about whether it's that not enough happens in the main plot, or that not enough happens in the novel as a whole, and so the main plot's left looking a bit bare.

If not enough happens in the main plot, could you think of adding another point on the W - a WW, or WWW - of the main plot? It needn't be a car crash, after all. Emotional events are still events. Can you coax out a minor character or event to provide another barrier for them to get over? Or make develop some characteristic of Tash or Kev a bit more, and trigger another turn to the plot as their competing needs and expectations bump into each other?

If it's that the main plot's got enough in it, but reads a bit skeletally, can you build up a minor character or couple into their own subplot, perhaps one that explores a different angle on one of the main themes - comic instead of tragic, say, or a very different character faced with the same problem and therefore reacting very differently? Could you move a peculiar family in next door and have small interactions with them throughout, as a different kind of thread, which thickens up the sense of everyone in the novel interacting and affecting each other, without seriously altering the route the novel takes?

It sounds like an awful lot of work, but in my experience it's often not as bad as you think it will be. When you know the book as well as you do, it's not so hard to hop your way through tucking the new bits into place. Though they they stick out like a sore thumb to you, rather as the new rug on the sitting room floor glares at you for weeks. You may need someone else to read it to tell you if you've darned the new bits in properly.

Emma

This W thing is very close to screenwriting paradigms I've seen. So I guess it's a dramatic thing - and structural as Emma says.

How closely should we apply it to novel writing? Is there a danger of 'doing it by numbers'? I can see the temptation.

Jim

Thanks loads for suggestions everyone!

I'm definitely not going to do anything too dramatic because the realism and the message of the novel are important to me. And lots of people - including Eve, my agent - have liked the book as it is! I certainly wouldn't compromise myself for the sake of getting published either.

However, a lot of people have commented about the plot, which to me says it deserves to be looked at - and it is an important skill for a writer, obviously! It's not something that comes easily to me, so even if I just make quite small changes (Eve has already said something about subplots too), I think it will be a learning experience for me - one that I probably need.

Cath

However, a lot of people have commented about the plot, which to me says it deserves to be looked at

Yes, it's when lots of people are saying the same thing that you have to start to believe them. It does sound as if a sub-plot is less likely to alter the overall feel and style of the book, which as you say is so important, than a trying to crank up the action more in the main plot.

You've obviously got a really good dialogue going with your agent, which is so important, and a huge advantage at these kinds of moments.

Emma

Anyone know the link for the recent subplots thread SammyJay mentioned? I think I missed that one. Cheers!

Cath

Is this it?

http://www.writewords.org.uk/forum/65_73724.asp?y=1&sterm=subplots

Dee

I think it is, Dee. Cheers.

But to be honest, it's starting to annoy me, thinking about this; thinking about 'rules' concerning plots. I don't want my novel to have rules, or follow a pattern. I want it to be like life!!

Cath

<Added>

Haha, and just reading through some previous 'plot' themed threads, look what I found by Terry Edge ):

Without wanting to get too deep about this, I think there can also be a psychological angle to the difficulty people have with plots. This is the strong reluctance to impose structure on a story, stemming from a strong belief that life just happens – that it can even be morally wrong, if not bordering on evil, to force the flow of life into an artificial shape. And of course there is truth in this where life is concerned; but the point is, that a story fundamentally is about how life could or ought to be, not how it is. Without wanting to get my head bitten off here, I would say that on the whole women find plots harder to deal with than men. Which could of course be a reflection of 'real life', where to an extent women tend to prefer the natural, organic, spontaneous aspects to life, while men tend to try to impose structure – plans, schemes, trips, scams, etc – on to it. I see a lot of manuscripts and I have to say that on the whole women writers are better at the close-in stuff – characterisation, dialogue and scene-building – but struggle with story structure and plot. With male writers, it's just about the opposite. Whatever the general truths here, I would say that every writer, if he or she wants to be an effective writer, first has to be open to seeing where his or her personal psychological block lies. And part of that cognition must involve the understanding that such a block will be fiercely protected by oneself from 'attack' or exposure. In my experience, the only force strong enough to allow this perception and then provide the courage to remove the block, is the desire to be the best writer one can possibly be and not be content to remain a blocked promise.

from: http://www.writewords.org.uk/forum/65_32327.asp?spage=2

Dee - thank you for your explanation of the theory of W shaped plots. It came at the right moment for me - I've just used it to help me plan the next stages in my book.

But I've some questions about applying the theory and I would be grateful for everyone's comments on this.

First, should we worry about spacing all points of the 'W' evenly throughout the book? Or could the plot follow a different pace? I'm thinking of film scripts in comparison where the AB bit happens in the first ten minutes and the DE bit happens in the last ten minutes.

Also, when I looked at my plot, I realised that two of the points were happening on top of each other. Does it depend on how well a book is written for this sort of plot structure to work, or is it really a bad idea from the start? What are others' views on this?

S