unfortuately, there are no hard and fast rules,

It feels unfortunate, when you're all at sea with an aspect of writing, but in the end, isn't that the joy? It's all contingent, relative, mutable, and we can all make our own stabs at pinning things into a shape that works.

Emma

Absolutely! I couldn't agree more. Some of the writing legends have done just that. Gone their own way and created a masterpiece in the process. I guess what we are all trying to do is find a way of turning something incalculably complex - real life - into something accessible - a piece of writing.

A considerable intellectual conundrum.

Best

John

Emma
You are so right about this. If there were hard and fast rules, nothing would ever change and some of the best things would never have been written - 'As I Lay Dying' by William Faulkner for example or anything by Virginia Woolf, or lots of Shakespeare since he kept inventing new words and usages, or 'Catcher in the Rye'.etc etc

Naomi

You guys are opening a whole new world of possibilities for me.
Prospero saying that his story did not have any at all, makes me feel a lot better about the couple of instances where my pages are filled with narration, but very little character interaction.
What I am narrating is vivid in my mind, and it is memories that belong to me, but I guess I felt I needed to interest the reader with dialogue, perhaps feeling insecure about a particular anecdote without dialogue.
I need to keep reminding myself that not everything has to be talked about, some things are best left unsaid......
Mon

Just to confuse matters, this is a direct quote from a critique I had done (from quite a well-respected critiquing service).

One of the elements which separates popular and literary fiction is the amount of dialogue included in each genre. Commercial fiction readers would expect to find a balance of approximately 60% dialogue to 40% narrative in a novel

She then went on to point out that my first chapter was almost all narrative.

I have been flicking through some of the books from my shelves (the less literary ones) and can't really see that this is true, or even how it's possible. I mean, if you try to put in too much dialogue you end up with those contrived conversations that are obviously just put in to provide information.

As Emma says, dialogue should be an organic part of a scene rather than grafted on.

Could be wildly off the mark in your case, mon, but I often find that in stories where there's alot of narrative but little dialogue it's because the narrative is doing alot of telling, so 'Little Red Riding Hood was very cross with the Wolf' instead of ''Oi, Wolfie, sod off!' Little Red Riding Hood said'.

If you have more than one character in a scene and you just let them voice for themselves what they want/feel, would that lead to more dialogue?

I remember reading a view that the minimum of dialogue was the right amount. Then again, one of my favourite quotes about writing is from Elmore Leonard who, when asked what good writing was, replied 'Alot of white on the page'.

Depends on where you want to aim, I guess.

No idea if this is at all helpful. Think I'll just go eat a chocolate muffin.

Andrea

Yes, I understand, that is helpful as well.
Maybe I'll just post what I'm talking about and wait for you guys to pull it apart.....
I wish I had a chocolate muffin....
Mon

I often find that in stories where there's alot of narrative but little dialogue it's because the narrative is doing alot of telling, so 'Little Red Riding Hood was very cross with the Wolf' instead of ''Oi, Wolfie, sod off!' Little Red Riding Hood said'.

Dead right, Anj - dialogue is a good way of getting into show rather than tell.

Emma

Mon,

The best thing you can do is write, write and write more. If this sort of problem worries you then it suggests to me that you are at the beginning of your writing journey and you have a lot to learn.

Also read, read and read more of the books that appeal to you and while you are reading try to look at that reading, not only from the enjoyment point of view, but also as a means of answering the many questions you may have about your own writing.

Your problem is to understand what you mean when you say to yourself that there is too much dialogue. You must feel happy, feel 'right' about your material. If you feel that you include too much dialogue then you probably do.

From the answers you have already received you will see that there are no hard and fast rules, so the answer lies in your hands and in your skills that you will need to develop as your prime critic and most constructive editor.

You may well emerge as being a most unusual and creative writer through writing volumes of almost continuous dialogue.

If you find that your creative drive demands that dialogue is paramount to your writing then consider writing plays, filmscripts and suchlike and forget any ambitions to become a novelist.

I don't write Poetry as I find it too difficult butI would also suggest that you read good Poetry which has the inherent demand for the understanding and relevance of words, their beauty and power and the way in which great emotions may be aroused and very clear images may be formed - all (mostly) without the use of dialogue.

Len

One of the elements which separates popular and literary fiction is the amount of dialogue included in each genre. Commercial fiction readers would expect to find a balance of approximately 60% dialogue to 40% narrative in a novel

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. This is the kind of observation which may be of interest to literary historians, but is completely useless to the writer. And I don't actually believe publishers think of it that way either.

The 'right' proportion of dialogue to narrative is whatever the story needs. If you get it right for the story, no one will be measuring, they'll just read it and love it.

I know that's not terribly helpful when you want a rule, but really, truly, the only way to get it right is to read everything good you can lay your hands on, and to work on and develop your own writing skills and instincts - including posting work here, workshops or other feedback (but not necessarily feedback from editorial consultants who think about writing from the wrong end, and have the soul of an accountant). Then your instinct will tell you when it's wrong, and your skills will help you get it right.

Emma

<Added>

Ginerva, reading this I realise it sounds as if I'm dissing your editor, and I didn't mean to. I do hope you got good and helpful advice from it; I know services like that can be a fantastically useful way of improving your writing.

Len,
Thank you for all your great advice.
I would love it if you could read some of the poetry I have posted and give me some advice. I do not care to be poet, but I find it a fun excercise.
I am at the beginning of my writing journey, although I have been writing since I was a little girl,...but I have only started to take "the plunge" this year.
I am a late bloomer as far as writing is concerned, and I guess insecurities are part of the process when you get a little, how should I say this without hurting myself..."mature?" "well-seasoned?" "experienced in life?"
I have never had any formal training except for the odd creating writing course in a couple of colleges.
I know you may say that doesn't matter, but I do lack of the basic training and knowledge in form, style, and mostly critique.
I can happily say though, that my couple of courses in creative have always brought me an "A" and a smiley face........I know, that does not qualify....
Mon

Emma,
How about sending a recorded tape of your advice, so I can put it on my nightstand and listen to it every morning when I wake up as a form of encouragement?
Mon

One of the books I have read which has incredibly powerful dialogue is 'Beloved' by Toni Morrison. She has long passages of dialogue completely unbroken by any description, not even by a 'he said' or 'she said' and that adds to the power. The focus is 100% on the words uttered and the effect is almost oppressive. Not sure if that would work for everyone but Toni Morrison is Toni Morrison.

Ashlinn