Something I worry about!

I really value all the comments I get on my work, especially on this site but I sometimes worry when commenting on someone else's work - that I may do more harm than good?

So much of what we read is subjective impression and everyone reacts in different ways to different books - just look at the diversity of opinion on favourite writing. It bothers me that just because I may not "get" something for whatever reason - tired, ill informed or just plain dozy - I could cause damage if someone chooses to take what I say seriously and I'm wrong!

Obviously I do try to think carefully before I comment and maybe I'm being a bit precious here - but does anyone else have similar concerns?

I was reading Stephen King recently where he makes fun of vague "writing group" comments. Any tips on how to improve commenting skills?

Sarah

If you don’t get something you read, it doesn’t mean you're wrong or that the writing isn’t good. It just doesn’t push your buttons. You shouldn’t, however, simply say you don’t like it and leave it at that. Someone said recently that they didn’t like the ending to one of my short stories. I wasn’t hurt or offended. I just accepted that not everyone can like everything. (there again, I've had plenty of experience of taking feedback!)

I suppose the harsh reality is, that if someone really can't take adverse comments – no matter how constructive – then they shouldn’t put their work out in the public eye.

When I'm commenting on a piece of work on here, I try to avoid saying I don’t like it. (In fact I tend not to finish reading things I don’t like) I try to help with sentence construction, story construction, punctuation.

If a writer can't face that, even on a very gentle level, then perhaps they're not ready to go public. Hopefully, in time, they’ll come to see that there are many ways they can improve their work (we should all accept that. No-one should think their work is perfect).

So I think we should give feedback in good faith and leave it to the writer to take it or leave it as they wish.

Dee

ps - sorry this is a bit garbled. I'm not firing on all cylinders this afternoon.

I think the important thing is for the critic to remember a) that they shouldn't say anything they wouldn't mind being on the receiving end of and b) that all these comments are subjective, and only your opinion, so 'I didn't like it' is better than 'it's unlikeable'. (It's the same principle as telling a child that they did a bad thing, not that they're a bad child.)

And if you're aware that the piece is not your sort of thing, I think you have to go specially carefully. The worst I've ever felt about a piece of mine was a story which a tutor really laid in to, and only at the end said that she was sorry if she'd been too fierce, but she was allergic to anything with a castle in it. I wish I'd known at the beginning, and could have braced myself, and perhaps discounted some of what she'd said. As it was, I couldn't look at that story for months, so strong was the doubt about it that she'd sown in me. Everyone else including the other tutor thought it was fine, if in need of some tweaks.

Emma

Sarah,

I agree with you that it's not always easy to know how to comment but if you are concerned about being constructive in your criticism, then you probably are.

My attitude is that I try to express my honest reaction as a reader to the work. I try to tell the writer why I like or don't like something. Then it's the writer's job to figure out if my reaction is an individual one or if lots of people feel the same way. As for my own writing, often I'm aware of the flaws and the commentator only highlights it further for me. If it's a criticism that comes out of the blue then I tend to put it to one side for a while and see if it makes more sense to me over time. For me anyway, it's rare that a criticism I receive is completely unfounded.

If I read a piece that I don't like at all then I don't comment even though I'm aware that my opinion is entirely subjective. On the other hand if there is something, even a small thing, I don't like I tend to point it out rather than gloss over it. One thing that I try to avoid is telling the writer how to correct the problem - I don't think that's for me to say - but sometimes I might make a suggestion if I think the person is interested.

Ashlinn

A tough skin and an open mind is essential if you want to make it in this business, as well as undersanding the basic precept that you cannot please all the people all the time.

Faith in your own work should never be invalidated or affected by either rejection or approval, though the way is hard because you still have to be open to criticism in order for your skill to improve.

One cannot learn if one does not listen, so to post here and make it known you only accept praise, in order to shut down on negative views and opinions, is not the path to becoming a worthwhile writer. If someone said to me 'I didn't like your story, it stank' (which hasn't happened yet but inevitably will) I would want to know why, but wouldn't react as a person offended that my art could be so judged. That is plain dumb arrogance, unprofessional and far too narrow to ever get a person anywhere.

Do you want people to tell you what they think, or what you want to hear? If it's the latter, that, in my opinion, is counterproductive to being a published writer.

I absolutely echo all the words above, especially Dee's pertinent remark that if you cannot handle varying subjective views, then your work is clearly not ready for public consumption. Faceless readers and critics who have no personal communication with you at all, and thereby no reason to be kind, will not spare your feelings in a commercial forum. So before you put it out there, you better be as sure as you can be that you're not publishing crap.

I stay objective and constructive at all times in regards to other people's work. If I hate the writing that much, I don't comment and in future, I don't read it. In most cases, I accept this is only down to my personal tastes. In some, I suspect it is to do with the writer, but I keep that to myself.

JB

When I first started on this site, Terry Edge made a very blunt comment to me about the lack of honesty in my work. It was the most important thing he could have said to me, and has made such a difference since (at least I hope it has, although I still have to guard against sounding too fancy). I think if someone selects 'go on, I can take it!' then they are telling you they are ready for anything. If they get huffy, then a gentle reminder about the level of comment they selected tends to take the wind from their sails. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. After all, we are readers as well as writers, and if a piece pushes no buttons for us, it probably won't for others either.

I think if someone selects 'go on, I can take it!' then they are telling you they are ready for anything.

You would expect that… but not everyone thinks the same. I've been abused in the past for making that assumption – so I’d advise anyone to beware.

I agree that we are probably the best audience any upcoming writer could hope to have. Personally I have never selected a level less than 'Go on I can take it' because I don't see the point in anything else. School of hard knocks made me who I am today - my writing hopefully reflects that, so why should it get special treatment?

I very much appreciate and trust Terry's input. His no-nonsense deconstruction of one of my stories directly resulted in its publication, and I respect his long experience in the craft. Say it like it is boss! I know he has been misunderstood and attacked in the past, but I feel that has been by writers whose writing is still only all about them, rather than story. True art should at least attempt to transcend ego, in my opinion. If it doesn't, it usually stinks. If the writer never learns how to, it will always stink.

I didn't come here for a verbal ovation or to affirm my ego. My sexual prowess does that for me. I came to learn the craft, and if all I ever got was people molly coddling my work, I'd be the poorer for it. I am proud to contribute to this community, and have the privilege of reading the many great writers on this site. It has been one of the most humbling, educational and uplifting experiences of my entire creative life.

JB

I can't think of any writing that I couldn't comment on in kindly tones, even if what I said was tough. I think 'go on, I can take it', should apply to what you say, but not to how you say it. When as the writer you tick that box, it doesn't give the reader licence to say that something's... well, pick your own expletive. Apart from anything else, harsh language (as opposed to statements) makes the writer block their ears in self-defence, and not hear the legitimate criticism beyond.

I also think that it's not just soppiness to tell them what does work, preferably before you tell them what doesn't, but actually good teaching. Half the things they're getting right they may not know they're doing. And they'll recognise the truth of the criticisms far more openly if they've (rather more willingly) recognised the truth of the praise. That's why a generalised 'this is lovely' is no more helpful than a generalised 'this is crap', and proper, detail about good and bad things is the only really constructive respons.

That's why I don't comment on work except when I'm asked to directly by the writer (which I'm happy to do - don't get me wrong). I don't have time to do it properly very often, and I see little value in any other kind of interaction with the work.

Emma

Now that is curious. You only comment when you're asked to read a piece? I'm not saying that's wrong or anything, but I've just not encountered that before on WW.

JB

PS I was wondering why you didn't read my Devil Worship one...

I've always selected ‘Go on, I can take it’ but that’s because, when I was new to posting on here, there was no option and, by the time it arrived on the site, I was hardened enough to take whatever anyone chose to say.

We just have to be careful of new tender souls. It might be easy to say ‘yes I can take it’, late at night with the prop of enthusiasm but, at dawn, they might be more fragile. We should be gentle with them until they’ve found their level.

But, hell. I've been on this site for a long time and I still appreciate any comment on my work, especially the ones that explain where I got it wrong.

As writers, we should never get to the point where we feel we don’t need feedback. We should always be open to suggestions from others. And, in return, we should be able to give both positive and constructively negative comments.

Don’t really know if this makes sense… brain is stuffed with sawdust tonight!

Dee

It's really interesting and helpful to see what everyone says about commenting.

I agree very much with Dee's advice at the beginning.

I suppose my question was as much to do with self doubt as anything else. I use the "go on" box and have yet to receive any comment on this site that hasn't helped me - and like JB I think it's a real privilege to belong to this community.

My "anxiety" wasn't about deliberately destructive criticism - more about making a "wrong call" - that a well intentioned comment could be wide of the mark or inadvertantly cause harm?

I suppose hopefully people receive a range of comments on their work and can sort out what is useful and what isn't?

Sarah

I suppose hopefully people receive a range of comments on their work and can sort out what is useful and what isn't?

I think that's a big part of what goes on here; you need a bullshit detector for criticism, as well as for your own work, and this is a great place to develop it. Not that the critic need be deliberately bullshitting, it's just that it's perfectly possible to lay into someone for not successfully writing something they weren't trying to write in the first place. As the writer you need to be able to discern that that's what's going on, and ignore it.

Some people are more thin-skinned than others, and one of the drawbacks of the online setup (there are lots of advantages, not least for the shy and thin-skinned) is that you can't see faces when you type criticisms, or I suspect that the people who tend to be trenchant while typing would soft-pedal a bit more. Not lie, or say it's lovely when it isn't, just go a bit gently.

Emma

Sarah, if you really feel strongly about something, but feel unable to post a comment, you could try contacting another member via WWmail to get their help.

I've long thought that we could do with a ‘buddy’ system on here, to help new members into the ways of providing feedback.

Dee

Thanks, Dee and Emma!

No, I comment when I want to and if I feel strongly about something then I'm generally not afraid to say so - and this is no specific problem, really!

And if I didn't feel I could say anything helpful or I didn't feel some affinity with the work then I wouldn't comment at all.

It's much more hazy than that and I'm failing dismally to get over what I do mean(!)

I suppose it comes down to this - and it's hypothetical - I make a comment that causes someone to decide to make some alteration to their work that they might not have made otherwise - but my comment is inadvertantly an act of vandalism? Crazy I know! Sorry...

Sarah