who's jonathon cape?

It seems to me natural to have a wealth of words for things that are of deep importance for that culture. In my opinion, English is a poverty-stricken language when it comes to food. Most of the precise words in cookery are taken from French, saute, souffle, gratin, casserole, mousse, hors d'oeuvre, aperitif, a la carte and oodles more. I was once asked to help translate a technical agricultural document on tomatoes. It referred to about 13 different forms of tomato which are available in French supermarkets. Once I got beyond cherry and vine I was stuck. I do think that this is a reflection of the extreme importance food plays in the thought processes of the average French person versus the English.

As for the interaction between language and thought, my opinion is that thought is like a continuum of space and words straddle a certain segment on meaning in that space which may be more or less precise. In the case of snow, the word 'snow' covers a large expanse of meaning of which 'slush' is a subset. Between languages the start and end point of the meaning of a word is not the same although there may be enough overlap to justify equating it to another word in the dictionary. Recently, I wanted to write the meaning of the phrase 'avec du recul' but I couldn't find it in English. 'With hindsight' covers a lot of the meaning but not all of it. In fact no word covers exactly the same space in thought, no more, no less. The same is true the other way round. After reading something, I often can't remember later if I read it in French or English. Then I have to push aside the thoughts themselves and try to remember the exact words used.

Ashlinn

"the truth seems to lie somewhere between these two positions" (!).

I can't think of a single debate I've heard on the radio - political, linguistic or otherwise - where I didn't end up thinking this. In fact, I think I said on another thread that what I'm usually trying to say in my novels is 'it's not as simple as that' and JoPo's version is a close sibling of that thought.

No word within a single language is a synomyn for another, let alone across more than one. On one hand, how we think is often (mainly?) constrained by the language we have to think it, but on the other hand, I know of authors who actually prefer parts of the translated version of their novel, where there's the perfect word for something they were trying to say, but didn't have the perfect word in the original language.

Emma

Do you really burn heather for a living, Jim?

I know lots of different words relating to chocolate - as Ashlinn says, it depends what you're interested in. However, I read somewhere that the Inuit/snow thing is a romantic myth - they don't actually have that wide a snow vocabulary.

Frances

Ashlinn wrote: "In my opinion, English is a poverty-stricken language when it comes to food. Most of the precise words in cookery are taken from French, saute, souffle, gratin, casserole, mousse, hors d'oeuvre, aperitif, a la carte and oodles more."

Yes (although what about 'toad in the hole' and 'spotted dick' and 'dog in the blanket'?) but this is one of the great things about English - its ability to borrow (or steal) 'loanwords' from other languages. Not just in food/cookery, but in the semantic fields of science (!) and technology (!) too, and many others.

Jim (whose ancestors probably spoke Woadish)

Well why invent new words when we can borrow someone else’s?

We have some wonderful names for local dishes… what about singing hinnes and pan hagarty from Northumberland?

Dee

what about 'toad in the hole' and 'spotted dick' and 'dog in the blanket'

Jim, I have no idea what these things are? Are we still talking food or have you moved on to the other field the French have a reputation (not fully merited) for? (can't do smiley. help)

The English have invented lots of the great sports, tennis, football, rugby, cricket(?), snooker and more and, as a result, the terminology used in these sports is English, even in foreign languages. The English phrase 'fair play' is used in French as the equivalent doesn't really exist. Different things have a different weight and importance in different cultures and I do think that influences the extent of the vocabulary that exists to describe and discuss it. Sorry but when it comes to food, the French are in a league of their own. Every social occasion of any consequence revolves around at least four hours, if not more, at the table. It gets to be too much at times.

Ashlinn

PS Dee, in this day of international communication and travel I get a bit suspicious of dishes that don't travel. I wonder if you have to be raised on them to like them.

And Sussex Pond Pudding - the syrup is full of currants, like tadpoles.

F

Ah well, Ashlinn, I didn’t say I liked them! I just think they're great names… LOL

I do wonder if we once had lots of names for, say, tomatoes, when there were lots of different varieties grown.

Mind you, tomatoes are relatively new arrival, of course, and only grown and eaten widely in - I'm guessing - the second half of the 19th century.

Emma

I'm told there are more than 600 varieties of potato - but how many words do we need as potato eaters?

Okay Ashlinn, I guess as far as recipes go, the French have this covered.

I remember when visiting a French family at age 14 (tout seul), I mischievously said at dinner 'these potatos are nothing like the English ones we get back home' (and I said it in French). Boy oh boy, did I get some flack - but not because I'd been rude to them particularly ... no, it was the insult to the French potato they couldn't cope with. Their 'amour propre' was well and truly affronted. Next day I had a go at the Pope - and that caused a fuss too. But they were more affronted by insults to a French potato than an Italian Pope.

We stayed friends over the years though.

Jim

I'd happily insult French apples, given the chance...

Emma

The 'fourth person' seems an interesting concept; surely such a label would apply to the use of 'we' as the narrative voice (as in, for example, the US Declaration of Independance). I don't think anyone has yet mentioned it, but there's a lot here to trawl through

Interesting idea, Erin. Welcome to WW, by the way.

Nik

Thanks.
I've just been looking around; seems an interesting forum.