I need a bit of advice here.

For the first time I'm trying to lay out a proper plan for a story, but it's a bit of a mess, a sequence of ideas and events in a rough order.

Is there any kind of template somebody could offer that works for them, for laying out a story in plan form up to the point of writing for real. How much detail do you need at this point? (I know, string, length, etc)

In this case the story is plot-oriented (sort of crime-ish), and I'm doing it as an exercise, because I'd like to make planning an effective way of getting out of the 'stuck half-way up a cliff and unable to move' situation, which is the point I keep getting to. Fully groundhogish.

Pete

Hi

I tend to draw up rough story maps, like the framework for a dress. I'll pin these to my board and consider them for a while. I like to have beginning middle and end down before I begin, but can 'move the goalposts' if a better idea comes along. I've also draw up choreography diagrams for fight sequences, but not everyone needs to go that far - I just find it helps me to know where everything is/where an escape route is ect. This probably comes from playing Dungeons and Dragons as a lad.

I also favour lists of events, because it's easier to 'link' things, and should show you great plot hooks i.e. what occurs in chapter two as a mystery can become a terrific twist in chapter twenty.

I also keep 'character sheets' as I find it easy to forget that so and so had a squint/blonde hair/hare lip by page 300.

JB

Thanks JB

Pete, where's the fun in planning a novel out? Write it, that's the fun part. No - revising is the fun part

Think of all the time you're going to spend planning it out, when you could be writing it.

Ste

Ste

But... but... I get stuck! I'm sick of getting stuck!

Pete

Pete,

You've just stole a car, do you sit in the driver's seat going, "Shit, I don't know how to get from A to B?" - do you take the easy route and search the glove comparment for a map? Only if you're going through the motions.

You hotwire that car and get the hell out of there, going down roads you don't know, meeting strangers along the way, crashing, yet always surviving. Take the journey.

Fate rules over our lives. You can't plan fate. So why would you want to plan the fate of your characters? It makes no sense. Formulas, cliches, stereotypes - all tried and tested things that other writers have done - why would you want to do that?

Richard Laymon suggested that whenever you're writing, stop at the point where you know what's coming next. Then the next day you aren't stuck for ideas.

But this is just my opinion, and I won't repeat it over and over until everybody agrees. Do what works for you.

Best,
Ste

Ste
Ta
Pete

Ste Ta Pete

Is that the pate recipe? You know, the one you used MY horse to make it with. We all know you can use gunpowder to season meat, but you could have at least left me the exploding hooves!

Ste

Pete, while in general I'm all for the let's-set-off-and-see-where-it-takes-us method I definitely think that any thriller or other kind of plot-heavy novel that depends on suspense and mystery is the better for being at least slightly planned, because structure is even more crucial than it is for other kinds.

It's all very well being Chandler and saying that when you can't think what to do, bringing a guy in with a gun in his hand, but a) Chandler's God, and most of us aren't; and b) he was calculatedly insouciant about his writing when actually he worked incredibly hard. And c)his plots are often full of holes, it's just that you don't notice at the time. His letters are fascinating, BTW.

With mystery, there's a lot you need to know that the characters don't, or don't yet, or some do and some don't, and it would be horribly easy to lose track. You also need to lay the bombs that are going to explode in later chapters, otherwise the reader feels cheated. You can always go back and put those things in later, but it's actually more work in the end than getting it right in the first place. It's a bit like getting a neg. right in camera, then the printing's easy, rather than trying to compensate for it being wrong with stuffy hours in the darkroom. Whoever said that changing the structure of a novel late in the day is like trying to turn round the QE2 was dead right

I'm sure there was a thread talking round these things not long ago - someone asked if there was a book about creating suspense.

Emma

<Added>

Pete, realise I didn't really answer your question. One way is to make a grid - the rows are chapters, and the columns are the different threads of the story, or what happens to each main character. If the story involves un-ravelling something that happened before, I often have a column which tracks what is revealed of past events to the reader - obviously which characters know what of that will vary. If there's a theme running through the novel - betrayal, say I've sometimes had a column which tracks which chapters explore which aspects of that.

You can have a page of notes for each character, and I find it even more useful to have a page for a given topic - how they react to pressure, say, or their political views, or interesting oppositions of character - optimist v. pessimist, caution v. recklessness. That helps to bring the characters out in relief against each other.

Like JB, I draw maps, and spider diagrams of people's relationships with each other or a given event, and by the time you've done all that, it's well worked into your mind, and half the time you don't have to look at it again.

Ste

Yes, OK, I ate your horse. So what? It was delicious, all of it. You know what the best bit was? The carpaccio of shoulder. It had just that hint of carbide.

Pete

Emma

Thanks, lots of good points to think about. I'm sure I'm not the first or the last person to make a post on this topic.

Yes, Chandler can be full of holes and no, you're right, we don't care!

I'd like to take a Rankin short story and deconstruct it (if I can), write it out as a plan, then write my own story but with a similar crime and similar character types, all as an exercise to 'see how it's done'. Any thoughts on this as an approach? (apart from barely concealed mirth) I know Rankin brings his own magic to the task but all the same his technique is magnificient. It's his sleight of hand I admire. Nothing seems contrived.

As for the grid and the diagrams, I might try and apply them to the same project.

Thanks

Pete

Pete, your Rankin exercise sounds as if it would be interesting - certainly the deconstructing bit. His technique is admirable and worth anyone's study.

Writing your own version sounds a bit like the way they apparently write follow-ups to hit pop songs: they take the melody, write new words, then write a new melody to those new words, and bingo, you've got another hit. Certainly sounded like that to me last time I listened to the charts. It might be interesting to have a go, but I don't know how far it would be worth pursuing.

Emma

Emma

Just by the by, have you read James M Cain? Really terrific. Like Chandler, Thompson and Chekov had a love child. (good grief)

Pete

Like Chandler, Thompson and Chekov had a love child

Good Grief indeed! I'm almost tempted.

Emma

Of course the problem with speeding off in any direction is that you can literally end up anywhere. It is not the professional approach to writing. The professional has a map, and can deviate onto b roads if they like - always arriving more or less at the same destination.

JB