Katarina,

You are just the kind of person I would want to comment on the work I occasionally post on this site. I'm a teacher with degrees from various universities. I have toiled with Tolstoy, duelled with Dostoyevsky and even parried with Proust in French. But all that matters to me is whether my work is enjoyable, not profound or artistic (not that I'm suggesting a conflict!). Please don't give up on this site. It needs more people like you.

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Sorry, was interrupted before I finished.

What I mean is that good writing is not measured by the intellectual or professional background of the author. It is measured by whether the reader values the experience of engaging with that author's work. The idea that only those who have had some kind of professional training can be considered writers or artists is nonsense. If that were the case, then the bookshelves would be heaving with outstanding fiction works (given the number of people signing up for writing courses). But they aren't. There is a significant dearth in the amount of original fiction at the moment and, if anything, writing courses are making the situation worse (please save us from anymore self-absorbed, introspective novels which justify their overbearing egoism by claiming to be literary works).

As an avid buyer of fiction, I am desperate to find raw talent that is doing something different. So hang on in there, Katarina. You could be one of those new and original writers whose books I want on my shelves.

Katarina, I'm sorry that you feel that way. Many wonderful writers came from very modest backgrounds and I don't think the value of what they write has much to do with their education level (beyond a very basic level, anyway.) Don't be discouraged, keep involved.

As for the previous debate, I'd like to respond to a few points. There is a difference between training and practice and between basic skills and creative application. All artists need to learn the basic skills of their art and for writers that is the correct use of the English language in terms of grammar, sentence construction, etc. This is like the equivalent of a pupil learning the basics of an instument. Studying English is of value to anyone whether they want to be a writer or not just as learning an instument is of value whether the pupil eventually ends up playing professionally or just strumming on a guitar after a hard day at work.

This is not the kind of training Smudger was referring to because this has been available to almost everyone for a long time, probably as long as schools have existed, although some people have a much better 'ear' than others or are blessed with better teachers. The kind of training he was referring to is the creative writing courses. 'Are they a good thing?' he asked.

Continuing the music/ writing analogy, formal training of this kind has been present for a long time in classical music but, until recently, the best modern music came from young guys and girls practicing for years in someone's garage without guidance or supervision. (IMO, of course) They developed their own sound and that sound connected with others. However in recent times there has been a trend towards converting this 'practice' into 'training' with all these 'Star Academy' type programmes (this is the French version, I'm not sure what the English one is but I think it is a system that is very detrimental to the future of modern music.)

The real power of writing is how it 'connects' with its readers and that's a secret that not even the writer himself understands and so it cannot be taught. Beautifully crafted prose is like beautifully cut clothes; it helps but nothing beats natural beauty. When people complain about Stephen King or JK Rowling succeeding despite their pedestrian prose it's a bit like saying 'I can't believe he/she got the girl's/boy's heart wearing such a cheap outfit'. The fact is that they created a connection with their readers the way music does. Making the connection in classical music as with literary fiction is always going to be tougher because it demands more effort on the part of the listener/reader. That's not to say that i think that any effort the writer puts into the prose is pointless, far from that. If I have a date with a novel, I don't necessarily want a Saville Row suit but matching socks and clean underwear would be appreciated.

Ashlinn

Katarina,

A couple of points in response to your post. Firstly, you can safely assume that the vast majority of things said by journalists can be ignored.

Secondly I come from an ordinary background (grew up in a council house, mum a cleaner, dad a barman, comprehensive school, free school dinners yada yada). It's never stopped me having an opinion and voicing it.

I just happened to pick an instrument at school that no-one else wanted to play and got into music that way. I got into journalism because I wasn't earning enough money as a jobbing musician and couldn't keep up with the post-gig drinking and curry sessions.

Psst, Kat. We're all out of our depth; don't be fooled by the front...

Best

smudger

How right you are, Smudger (treading water with increasing panic)

Emma

Katarina,

Don't let background or education intimidate you. I grew up in a working class family, with parents who could barely afford the mortgage each month, and who had no car until I was about 11, and no phone until I was about 18. My Dad's job was so low-paid that even the unions didn't bother. My brother is a carpenter, my ancestors on my Dad's side (going back at least 4 generations) were all working class people, and my maternal grandmother came from a family of farm labourers (for at least 2 generations before her). I'm an oddity in my family, for having been to university. So I treat the thoughts and opinions of my peers (i.e. people from working class backgrounds) with the same respect as those of people from other backgrounds. And when you look at the world of entertainment, the people who stand head and shoulders above their peers are often the non-university people (David Jason and The Two Ronnies spring to mind). One of the greatest British comedians of all time, Norman Wisdom, came from a lowly background.

Writing, especially fiction, needs experience of life to make it come to life, and that experience can be from any source. Experience is not the same as education. Education may give people a leg-up in terms of careers and so on, but after that it is always experience that counts. Give me a choice between a recent Computing graduate with a first-class degree and someone with 10 years experience of writing commercial software, and I'd employ the latter before the former almost every time. The difference is experience, which cannot be taught but has to be gained.

So don't feel intimidated, Katarina. Your life experience is just as valid as anyone else's. Perhaps more so, in some contexts, because of coming from a different perspective. And it is differences between people that make the world interesting.

Finally, when I write, I'm not thinking in terms of a readership that knows "how it should be done". I write for a readership that wants to be entertained. For this reason, I value feedback from as wide a spectrum of people as possible. Because, after all, the pool of potential readers - people out there in the big wide world - covers all possible backgrounds.


Alex

Thanks everyone, you've all made me feel a bit better.

I have always been shy and lacking in confidence, and it does make me feel inadequate when faced with people who are professional and talented, as I often wonder 'what do I have to offer someone? I opt out of parties and large gatherings - the thought of being placed next to a stranger and having nothing interesting to say, terrifies me.

Then I pull myself up sharp, and think myself lucky, I am alive, I have a husband who loves me, a beautiful daughter and a home.

Having worked in a funeral directors for years, I know more than most people how short life is, and you are all quite correct, it doesn't matter that I'm from a working class background and have no particular talents. If I am able to write the sort of material that everyday normal (whatever that is!) people want to read, then I am fortunate.

Thanks everone for your encouraging comments.

Kat

Kat - you are so honest and see right through to things - and you've stopped this thread in its tracks, by giving us something real to think about. Not just education but about real life.

All these are the attributes of a truly excellent writer.

Us lot with degrees needed them to try and become writers, but there are thousands of brilliant writers who don't have degrees or journalistic training that are out there. Surely being perceptive and understanding something about something are the vital ingrediants?


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I mean - look at this sentence: "Having worked in a funeral directors for years, I know more than most people how short life is." Sounds like the start of a novel ....?

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And another one - novel, short story, article, essay, just because it is an aspect nearly all of us can relate to: "I have always been shy and lacking in confidence, and it does make me feel inadequate when faced with people who are professional and talented"

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"I opt out of parties and large gatherings " Me too - rather be writing any day.


Not to take anything away from people with degrees, but there are a huge number of paths. What suits one won't another. I got a degree but it was because I was so desperate to be a writer and no publisher was noticing me - so I had to find any sort of way that would help me develop. (And by the way, isn't the skill of a creative writing teacher to bring out what is inherent in the student?)

...the thought of being placed next to a stranger and having nothing interesting to say, terrifies me.

Me too, and it always has, and I'm trying to run a business in my day job. Business networking events are something of an ordeal for me, for that very reason (and speed-networking is so terrifying a thought that I don't dare try it, even though the concept did inspire me to write "Working the Room").

Also, spare a thought for those of us whose degrees had nothing to do with writing. In fact, mine had little to do with computing, either, yet I run a software consultancy in my day job and write in my spare time. So just think of degrees as GCSEs with go-faster stripes and rather plain-looking certificates.


Alex

I know very few people whose degrees relate to what they do, or who are doing the job they thought they'd be doing as they left school. And that's particularly the case for writers: there are as many ways into it as there are people who write, and thank God that's true. How dreary our literature would be if it wasn't.

My writing degree was an afterthought, as it were; I'd been writing seriously for years, so it was more in the nature of a career move than job training.

Emma

Issy, I've got to take issue with you when you say Katarina's remarks have given us something real to think about. Education is real, the question of technique is real, how each of us learns about how to become a better writer is real.

Katarina might have felt a bit intimidated because the discussion was straying into areas that she didn't feel qualified to talk about, but that happens to all of us. Put me in a room full of SQL database experts or astro-physicists and I'd be a little tongue-tied.

I don't think anyone would argue that a person's background or job have much to do with their creativity and imagination - and it is the latter two which are the key elements in making someone a writer.

The REAL issue is whether you need to learn some basics in order to become a better writer. For me the answer is yes, even if that learning process is simply practicing writing and getting some feedback on those efforts.

Issy,

I did think of writing a book about what goes on behind the scenes in a funeral directors - oh the stories I could tell you all! - and the title would be...

'Lifting the Lid'.

The problem is, there's not much of a market for that sort of thing - pity.

Kat

Kat, how about "Put the Lid Back, Quick!" instead?

Given the current liking of the macabre, I wonder if perhaps such a book might actually sell quite well. Of course, you might incur the wrath of the trade ("When Dickie, here, has finished with people, they're usually six feet under, miss.")


Alex

Personally, I'm a little bit disappointed that a conversation I found interesting got cut short. I know that some of the points raised got me thinking in a different way about writing but if others didn't feel that way and if this thread appeared to be pretentious, then I'm sorry about that. I think it's a shame, that's all.

Ashlinn

Ha ha, reminds me of a joke we used to tell - A man gets into the back of a taxi, and gives the driver his destination. After a while, the man thinks they are going the wrong way, so he leans forward and taps the driver on the shoulder.

The driver screams, swerves the car and they end up in a ditch.

'What the hell is going on,' shouts the man.

'Sorry mate,' says the driver, 'this is my first day on the taxis, I've been driving a hearse for the last 20 years.'