Hi all,

I've read through this whole thread, as to be honest, the subject is one I'm getting to grips with. I write with quite a few adverbs and adjectives, and then tend to eliminate as many as possible during the editing phase.

I find that adverbs and adjectives are a great scaffold to build a story with, but once the building is up, the scaffold can come down. Of course, a few adverbs and adjectives remain, but I think they should only be used to highlight something that isn't clear in the first place.

Grinder recently pointed this out to me (thanks Grinder!) and it has had a very positive impact on my writing. Those who read my work know I can be a tad 'wordy; and use italics to emphasise speech a lot.

I have learnt there is no point saying 'angrily' as a adverbial part of speech, when the phrase 'I'm going to rip your fucking eyes out' will do to convey that the speaker is, in fact, rather angry.

Part of the skill of fiction writing is to say things in a different way, other than relying on adverbs and adjectives, as we all know. However, pick up any bestselling book of the past five years, and I defy you not to find a whole damn heap of them!

JB

True about bestselling adverbs, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily good writing. (Doesn't mean it necessarily isn't of course)

Emma

Agreed.

Emma,

You look both ways at once but you can afford to do this when one uses such words as 'good writing'.

The adverb is one of the most useful of descriptive words. I think that they should be reduced or even removed when it comes to dialogue - the same as I think far too many writers overuse the word 'said'.

However I feel that when one it comes to 'good writing' I would suggest that 'good reading' is a more helpful concept when it comes to assessment.

Len

There shouldn't be any words in good writing that aren't earning their keep at least twice, or the reading won't be good however hard you try. I suspect the 'rule' to ban adverbs and adjectives is because they're the ones which are most often used where they don't earn their keep, particularly by beginning writers.

Interesting - is 'good writing' synonymous with 'good reading' or are they two different things.

Emma

No one will ever convince me that:

"Yes," he smiled happily as he took her gently by her soft pale hand and drew her carefully out onto the wide polished dance floor under the chandelier.

Sounds better than:

"Yes," he smiled and drew her out onto the dance floor.

JB

I think it boils down to adverbs and descriptive dialogue attribution can be used to paste over other shortcomings in the sentence. Therefore there is little difference between a weak writer trying to shore up flagging descriptions and dialogue, and a strong writer who is flowery with their choice of words.

So isn’t it better, as a writer, to train yourself not to uses them, and force yourself to work harder to get the result you want. Then when you really need to, or just want to, you can chose to use an adverb, instead of reaching for it first?

Also (I think I got this from Stephen King – and I’d never cross the King), adverbs are often used by the timid writer who is afraid that their readers are just not going to “get it” unless they spell it out for them. The more experience and confident writer will know that their writing is strong enough to stand up on its own without adverbs.

This is just my own opinion, but if a writer is trying to get published the last thing they want is to appear timid and lacking in confidence in the eyes of a prospective editor. If that editor should later suggest to the successful writer that they need to add a sprinkling of adverbs, then so be it.

Grinder

Emma,

the same as I think far too many writers overuse the word 'said'

I have very stong opinions about this, for me its “he said” or “she said” or nothing!

And I’ll explain why. When used in this way “said” almost becomes as invisible as punctuation. The readers eye quickly becomes accustomed to it and ignores it. Whereas, “he shouted”, “she grumbled”, “he whispered” pulls the reader OUT of the dialogue to tell them something about it. The context and what is said should be enough to tell the reader what’s going on so they can remain immersed in the conversation.

That’s why I strive to use “said” exclusively and only resort to other dialogue attribution when I feel its absolutely necessary and I can’t find another way to tell the reader that the characters are whispering or shouting or grumbling to each other.

Grinder

I’ll go and lie down now.

Grinder


<Added>

Or should that be 'lay down'?

I've got to say I go along with Grinder 100% on "said". It is essential if you want your work read aloud. People use it in conversation all of the time, and usually the listener doesn't even pick up on it. It only becomes obvious when it isn't there as it becomes confusing who is saying what.

Colin M

I use these kind of words all the time: muttered, snarled, rasped, whispered, muttered, murmured, scoffed ect.

Strategically placed, they can add spice to a story.

JB

It is precisely for the reason that spoken conversation and written dialogue are very different that the overuse of the word 'said' can quickly become an irritation to the readers' eye.

Yes, of course in spoken conversation a lot of 'saids' are used, the same as the pauses, the gaps, the umms and the arrs are all part of conversation techniques including the sounds, the tones and even the manner of delivery when someone wishes to convey another 'colour' like sarcasm, mockery, praise, respect and so on.

In written dialogue often he/she said can be omitted and I am of the opinion that when the reader's attention needs to be brought back to who is speaking, then there are so many different and creative ways that this can be written that add to the smoothness of the reading.

Len

I think that it is important for a writer to learn to become independant and by that I don't mean arrogant, naive or cocky. There is a difficult, fine line to find between listening and hearing the impact your work has on your readers and developing the confidence and courage to carve out your own path and follow it.

Ashlinn

Grinder, perish the thought! It wasn't me who said that 'said' is overused, I'm sure. I actually think it's virtually invisible, provided you only use it often enough to keep readers clear about who's speaking. Assuming you only have two speakers, the rule of thumb seems to be about every fifth or sixth change of speaker. The time I think 'said' does stick out like a sore thumb is when it comes right at the end of a whole paragraph of speech. By then it's too late to tell the reader that: either they'll have worked it out anyway (in which case you don't need it) or they're terminally confused. If I can't get 's/he said' in among the first sentence or so of speech, I'll do something different.

And I very rarely use any other verb for anyone saying anything, except occasionally about volume. I'm much more likely to describe the voice directly, in my narrators voice directly, or as their thought. If I want to attribute some dialogue without using 'said', I'll usually associate it with them doing something. Show not tell again, I suppose.

But I would never say that's how others should do it, let alone that it's a rule. Just that that's what works best in my judgement for what I write.

JB, going back a bit, I love your over-written dancing couple! How not to do it indeed!

Emma

Emma

But I would never say that's how others should do it, let alone that it's a rule.

Emma, are you implying I was being a bit preachy? Well with hindsight I suppose I was (which was not my intension) So I apologise to one and all for that.

My opinions about the use of adverbs and minimalist speech attribution have been distilled from the dozens of “how to write” and “self editing” books I’ve read over the last two years. All of these written by professionals who, in my opinion, seem to know what they’re talking about. As my own writing style has changed in that time I can see what they’re getting at as I think I’m a better writer than I was two years ago.

When I’m writing, if I have to resort to using an adverb I know that what I’ve just written isn’t strong enough and I rewrite it. If I’m writing dialogue that I feel needs shoring up with speech attributions then I know that it’s not powerful or distinctive enough and rewrite it.

I’m just trying to get published, and this it the path I’ve chosen.