Hi

This is a basic query, I know.

I first wrote a novel in third-person and later changed to first-person. I like the fact that the MC can't know things, so you have to find ways to show what is happening without the MC knowing, etc.

For this novel I am working with alternating chapters in two timelines - now and then. The 'Then' will start in first and move to third as her life becomes more difficult and the 'Now' will start in third and move to first as, conversely, her issues are resolved.

However, I am writing the whole in first-person to start with, as I feel more comfortable knowing the characters and I feel I am more engaged with first.

When I move to third, I would like to keep a 'close' third, so we are still following the character's thoughts and actions and thinking as she would.

A clumsy example is a book I am just reading: 'she brushed her hand through her thick brown bob'. I would have thought that in first or close third, the MC wouldn't 'think' like this. For a start, why would she think her hair is brown when brushing her hand through it IYSWIM, but I guess this 'works' in third-person when it doesn't work in first.

So, this is the basic query: What is the main difference between first-person and close third-person? By this I mean, what additional things should I consider when changing? Do I have to add additional detail that the MC ordinarily would not add in first?

Any information would be helpful, as I'm sure there must be more to this than simply switching the POV and watching out for instances where it's not a simple switch.


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Also, the voice in first-person is limited by the MC's vocabulary/upbringing. So the words used and descriptions are based on what she would say/think. Would I need to adapt this for close third-person?

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Also, the voice in first-person is limited by the MC's vocabulary/upbringing. So the words used and descriptions are based on what she would say/think. Would I need to adapt this for close third-person?

I don't think there is much difference between first, and close third, except that you can pull out a little further in third, to some sort of neutral, external place, without the reader even noticing. That, as far as I can see is why people use a permantently very close third. I certainly can't think of another reason not to exploit the possibilities of psychic distance to say/know/show things that character can't.

I think what we're talking about really, though, is psychic distance, if you remember that week of the self-editing course. For example.

'she brushed her hand through her thick brown bob'

is a perfectly sensible thing for a third person narrator to show us. It depends how close in we are to the character's pov/voice, whether it seems wrong. If we're deep in her PoV - Gardner 4-5ish in psyschic distance - then I agree, it's very odd to have her thinking about her hair in those external terms. (Specially the brown bit):

Oh god, was he ever going to ring? What if he never phoned again. She wouldn't be able to bear it. She brushed her hand through her thick brown bob. Oh, damn that phone, why didn't it ring?

but if your narrative has pulled a little further out - the character's voice and pov is weakening a tad, and the external narrator's is taking over - then it makes perfectly good sense:

Oh, god, was he ever going to ring? She sat down and tried to push her thoughts towards her plans for the weekend, but her silent phone mocked her. It was raining a little, the London rush hour doing its thing of seeming at once energetic, and depressing. As the waiter set her coffee on the table she brushed her hand through her thick brown bob and then checked her phone for the twentieth time.

By moving out from her thought (in free indirect style, obviously), to a more Tell-y version of her next action, then to something which is much more the narrator's description - though of course it's a thought that the character might also be having in some form, so we're not that far away from her - then we're outside the character enough for the hair-brushing to seem perfectly sensible as one thing that the narrator is narrating.

Thanks Emma. I've been more aware of psychic distance since the course and it is extremely useful to have that awareness.

When going back to the chapters that need to be in third-person, I will check the psychic distance and see if there is a way of creating the necessary distance for some scenes that would not be so usable in first-person.

Hi - sorry - just an additional query on Voice (which I note we also looked at in the excellent course):

The voice in first-person is limited by the MC's vocabulary/upbringing. So the words used and descriptions are based on what she would say/think.

Would I need to adapt this for close third-person?

Thank you!

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By this I mean, when I go into the description, etc. in close third how much can I get away with in terms of the MC's voice?

Strangely enough, I don't want to get away with much more but at present even the description is limited to what she would see/think and uses words she would. Would this differ for close third?

By this I mean, when I go into the description, etc. in close third how much can I get away with in terms of the MC's voice?

As much as you like. You can go just as far in, in third person - just change the pronouns. It does sometimes feel a little different - I've just done a big conversion from first to third, and it needed a bit more tweaking. But basically it's the same. Look at this, from my psychic distance post. In first person

PD3 When I was a child Mistress Margit frightened me, and when she walked down the street the big ones would shout "Here comes Old Margit!", while I hid and crossed myself. PD4 And here came Old Margit, with her ragged clothes and her big black cat, and I shivered and prayed because St Mary would save me, wouldn't she? PD5 Margit’s coming and her cloak like little demons dancing and what’ll I do – mustn’t catch her eye – hide in the ditch cold and wet but Black Peter will see me – Mother Mary save me, he’ll look at you and then Margit can see into your mind and plant demons in there and...

and in third - though it gets quite slippery and tricky when you get really close in, and this is only a rough conversion

PD3 When Ben was a child he was frightened of Mistress Margit, and when she walked down the street the big ones would shout "Here comes Old Margit!", while Ben hid and crossed myself. PD4 And here came Old Margit, with her ragged clothes and her big black cat, and he shivered and prayed because St Mary would save him, wouldn't she? PD5 Margit was coming and her cloak like little demons dancing and what could he do – mustn’t catch her eye – hide in the ditch cold and wet but Black Peter would see him – Mother Mary save me, he prayed or Black Peter'd look at him and then Margit could see into his mind and plant demons in there and...

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Oops! The perils of conversions...

"while Ben hid and crossed himself."

Thanks Emma

This is really helpful. Thank you. I mean it, as it is a brilliant guide for future use.

However, I don't think I explained myself enough. In first, I am limited at all times by the voice the MC would use. If she is young she is unlikely to say 'courting', if she is uneducated she is unlikely to say 'the azure sea shimmered under the glare of the forbidding sun'. You get my drift.

How much more leeway do I have in close third, if any?

How much more leeway do I have in close third, if any?

I think it depends entirely on how you choose to set the psychic range of your "close third" (that's why I think "close third" is a rather unhelpful"). How close is close? How far out can it go? Essentially, what can your narrator think and say about this character's experience and their world, that the character wouldn't necessarily. The further out you are, the more you can edge towards things she wouldn't use, but your narrator would.

The main thing, I think, is to establish soon in the narrative what your own rules are for this novel: work out what the furthest out you'll go, and make sure you use the full range fairly soon, so the reader gets settled in to receiving the story this way.

This whole issue, I have to say, why I think "close third" is a super-un-helpful way to think of these things, because it really doesn't come down to either you're in it, or you're not: the process by which we feel further away from a character's experience and further towards the narrator's view of the thing, is a matter of degree, not of on or off. Some would say you can go as far out as you like towards a narrator's birds-eye view, as long as you never enter a different character's PoV. Others would pretty much limit you to the actual voice as well as PoV of the character, at which point I don't know why they don't do it properly and write it in first...

Thanks Emma - and for taking the time to answer this so thoroughly.

I'm trying third for part of this novel but because I am looking to switch so first and third are used for the same character, I wanted to be sure that what I am thinking of doing is correct and I make the most of the POV.

I need to think about third-person and what I want from it.

You're welcome, Sharley. Sorry I'm not being very clear today - brain not working very well. Glad it's helped a bit, anyway.

I need to think about third-person and what I want from it.

I think that's probably exactly right. If you're not sure how to handle it, then it's probably because you're not yet quite sure what you want to be doing with it.

Not, of course, that there's any such thing as correct in these matters. Just better and worse ways of solving your problem, things that work and things that don't...

What an excellent discussion. I find the whole subject of psychic distance utterly fascinating. Thank you Sharley for your questions and Emma for your answers. I've read your post about psychic distance several times, Emma, and the link to David Jauss' article is brilliant (that reminds me, I must read both again). Although I'm still trying to fully get to grips with the concept, I've found it quite liberating for my writing and am discovering how to go to places I never thought I could reach.

Sharley, I've been working on a character called Robyn for the last two days. She was originally written in close third (noting Emma's comments about that term), but when I wrote the first draft she was mid twenties. I am now editing, bringing psychic distance closer in, and also making her 17, so the words she chooses are different. It's in a teenagey voice.

I think I know what you're asking and my take on it (what I have decided to do) is not to use words Robyn wouldn't think in. I sometimes go out to 3 but it's mostly 4, I think, but always in words she would use.

The 'Then' will start in first and move to third as her life becomes more difficult and the 'Now' will start in third and move to first

This does sound immensely complicated, though. I'm wondering how you will manifest this change - one bold step, or in some bit by bit way? I wonder if you're over-complicating things, not only for you as the writer but also for the reader?

IOW, what makes you want to do this?

Deb

This does sound immensely complicated, though. I'm wondering how you will manifest this change - one bold step, or in some bit by bit way? I wonder if you're over-complicating things, not only for you as the writer but also for the reader?

I don't think it's that complex.

As the MC's life is easier, it will be shown in first-person, within her. As it becomes more difficult and the MC finds she is unable to draw strength from within, her feelings and emotions will be distanced by third-person. This will help with the traumatic scenes in particular, where the MC needs distance from herself.

And vice versa with the older self, starting in third and moving to first as she rediscovers herself and her thoughts and feelings.

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There will be defining scenes in each timeline where the change is made. The culmination of the grooming for the younger self, for example.

I think it's a great idea. And the way you talk about it shows you have the confidence and the vision to make it work! Go you! I look forward to reading book 2.

Deb

Thanks Deb. It will be interesting to see if you think it works. It's all very well having an idea...

It's brilliant to have an idea and to have confidence in it. If you know in your heart it will work, then it probably will. And if it doesn't, you'll discard the idea when the time is right.

I'm really looking forward to seeing some of the new one.

Deb