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  • Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by LorraineC at 13:43 on 24 April 2013
    Can anyone suggest a really could, simple, effective book on how to deal with Punctuation? I know it's one of my week points especially when it's wrapped around dialogue. But there's so many out there, and I don't which one to go for.



    <Added>

    weak not week! Having a bad day.
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by Anna Reynolds at 14:41 on 24 April 2013
    I've been using this when working with under/postgrad students who struggle with punctuation- especially when to use the comma and when to use semi colons etc.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Penguin-Guide-Punctuation-Reference-Books/dp/0140513663/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366810108&sr=1-1&keywords=punctuation


  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by Pen and Ink at 14:41 on 24 April 2013
    No, but I'd like to know too!
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by EmmaD at 14:59 on 24 April 2013
    Yes, I use the Penguin guide too; it's excellent. [note correct used of semi-colon]

    The Bristol Uni site is good as well, and has little exercises to practice:

    http://www.bristol.ac.uk/arts/exercises/grammar/grammar_tutorial/index.htm

    On punctuating dialogue, it's harder to find good advice as most books on punctuation don't seem to mention it. This is what I tell my OU students - apologies if I'm teaching my grandmama to do things:

    1) When a different person begins to speak, you start a new paragraph, with an indent in the normal way. Make sure there's something to tell us who says it: usually a speech tag 'he said, 'she asked', he whispered', or an action (including someone thinking something). If you want to start the paragraph with that person doing something, and then speaking, that's fine. You don't need to start a new paragraph for the speech, and make sure that if you do have a line of dialogue on its own, it's blinding clear from the line above who says it.

    2) Punctuation goes INSIDE the speech marks. If the speech is followed by 'he said' or a similar speech tag, you end the speech with a comma so it forms part of a single sentence.

    'Do have some coffee,' said John.

    or 'Would you like some coffee?' asked Sally.

    But if what follows is a separate sentence, then it needs a capital at the beginning.

    'What on earth are you talking about?' She pulled on her coat and stood up.

    If the speech tag is before the speech itself and together it all forms one sentence then the speech nonetheless starts with a capital letter:

    John looked at her hopefully but all she said was, 'What on earth are you talking about?'

    and the same when what precedes it is a standalone action, which should end with a full stop:

    Sally got up and pulled on her coat. 'Don't talk to me like that!'

    3) Thoughts, these days, don't get speech marks, though you'll find it in older copies of books. You should only put speech marks round something which is actually said aloud.

    She wondered if he was actually thinking about leaving his wife. But how on earth can I ask him that, she thought. Instead, she said, 'Have some coffee.'

    4) You can mix up action and speeches: you don't have to start a new paragraph every time someone opens their mouth, and it's often helpful if you don't; keep us clear on who's speaking without actual speech tags, by keeping their speech and their actions together. But you must start a new paragraph when the speaker changes.

    Emma
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by LorraineC at 15:44 on 24 April 2013
    Emma, that's very useful. Thanks. My biggest is problem is knowing if it's a capital or not for the following kinds of examples,

    ‘And boyfriends?’ he enquires tentatively.
    - I've been told after ? or !, it's a lower case he or she.

    ‘Am not.’ she protests.
    - Originally this was an upper case She, but I think (though I'm not sure why) that it's lower case.

    Similarly,
    ‘Because he’s snugly, silly.’ she trills in her adorable way, and crushes the bunny to her chest.
    - not sure if it should be She or she.

    I think this one is right, because it's continuing dialogue -
    ‘Once or twice,’ she admits. ‘Have you got any paper? We need a big sheet, preferably A3.’


    ‘Ouch!’ the tone of her voice, the expression on her face, says it all. She thinks I’m overreacting.
    - this one's got me. Is it The or the?
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by LorraineC at 15:53 on 24 April 2013
    Actually I guess that last one might be -

    'Ouch!'

    The tone of her voice, the expression on her face, says it all. She thinks I’m overreacting.

    Might be wrong though.
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by Pen and Ink at 16:03 on 24 April 2013
    'Am not.' she protests.
    Shouldn't that be a comma? and then lower case.
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by LorraineC at 17:17 on 24 April 2013
    Quite possibly.
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by Account Closed at 20:30 on 24 April 2013
    With dialogue, if it is followed by a he/she said, then whatever the punctuation is within the quotation marks - comma, question/exclamation mark (but not full-stop) - the following he/she said is in lowercase.

    However, if an action follows the dialogue, then there is a full-stop and the following action starts with a capital letter.

    Eg.

    "How are you?" she asked and turned to put the kettle on.

    "How are you?" She turned to put the kettle on.

    or

    "Come in," she said.

    "Come in." She opened the door.


    My issue is commas - too many in places, too few in others.
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by EmmaD at 23:42 on 24 April 2013
    Sharley's nailed it: it's not about a ? or a ! or a . inside the closing speech mark.

    It's about whether what follows is part of the same sentence, or a separate thing. Speech tags are a tag - they're part of the speech.

    'What are you doing?' she asked.

    What are you doing?' She picked up the hatchet.
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by LorraineC at 06:39 on 25 April 2013
    I see. Things are becoming a little clearer now, except I still don't know how to deal with my

    ‘Ouch!’ the tone of her voice, the expression on her face, says it all. She thinks I’m overreacting.
    - Is this right, or do I separate the Ouch and the next sentence?
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by EmmaD at 09:00 on 25 April 2013
    do I separate the Ouch and the next sentence?


    Yes, the T of Tone needs a capital, because it's not a speech-tag belonging to the speech, it's the beginning of a new sentence.
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by Stro at 11:35 on 04 May 2013
    It's online rather than a book, but David Crystal is very clear in his explanations - you could try this site:

    http://www.davidcrystal.com/?id=3101
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by Anna Reynolds at 09:19 on 07 May 2013
    Stro, this is a fantastic recommend- I've just sent this link to all my students who struggle with their punctuation. Many thanks!
  • Re: Book recommendation needed on Punctuation
    by Account Closed at 19:09 on 08 May 2013
    ‘No, no’, Hilary cried, in a tearful voice. ‘I’ll tell the vicar!’

    “No, no”, Hilary cried, in a tearful voice. “I’ll tell the vicar!”


    It is useful but why is he putting the comma outside the speech marks after 'no'?
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