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  • Yahoo! More grammar
    by Account Closed at 19:18 on 07 March 2013
    Right or wrong, I found this interesting and agreed with most of the comments made:

    http://news.yahoo.com/7-bogus-grammar-errors-dont-worry-060000215.html
  • Re: Yahoo! More grammar
    by EmmaD at 19:24 on 07 March 2013
    Me too. Thanks for that! I'm a fan of Ben Yagoda's, too.

    Some of them are more aimed at the US than the UK, in the sense that we're more flexible than they are - specially on which/that, and on group nouns being both singular and plural depending on the actually meaning of what's going on.
  • Re: Yahoo! More grammar
    by Account Closed at 19:35 on 07 March 2013
    I hadn't heard of the which/that potential issue. I tend to go for singular with group nouns but I could see his point about plural 'are' after of, etc.

    <Added>

    Emma - it's interesting that you say that the US is more strident about these grammar 'rules'. I wouldn't have expected that.
  • Re: Yahoo! More grammar
    by Astrea at 21:29 on 07 March 2013
    Hmm. Yes to most of his points - not sure about 'decimate' which gets Mr Astrea (classics nut until he switched to computing) foaming at the mouth.

    Starting a sentence with a conjunction I hope is accepted now, because I do it very, very frequently.

    But 'I could care less'? Not happy with that one. I will resist!
  • Re: Yahoo! More grammar
    by EmmaD at 22:02 on 07 March 2013
    it's interesting that you say that the US is more strident about these grammar 'rules'. I wouldn't have expected that.


    I think in some cases it's just that things have stayed on over there which have changed here. "Gotten" is the classic example. So it could be sometimes that it feels to me that it's a case of insisting on old fashioned, when it's just insisting. But the rules about commas, for example, are only slightly different - but much less flexible in how they're applied.

    It says a lot to me that one basic word over there for "teacher" is "instructor". I think most people who know much about it (including my sister, who's taught Maths both sides of the pond) would agree that US education is more chalk-and-talk, hand-in-the-air, answering questions correctly, even rote learning, much less actually thinking.

    And at undergrad level in the US they're not really expected to deal with primary sources at all, nor write actual essays where you have to do your own critical analysis, but only read textbooks and write short-answer exam papers.

    <Added>

    I agree about "I could care less" - makes no sense at all.

    Mind you, we have our own nonsensicalnesses. Such as the way that "he was quite exhausted" can mean "he was fairly exhausted" or "he was totally exhauste". So Brits in glass houses...
  • Re: Yahoo! More grammar
    by wordsmithereen at 10:24 on 08 March 2013
    I agree about "I could care less" - makes no sense at all.


    Me, too. Also 'momentarily' which means for a moment, not in a moment's time, as far as I'm concerned.

    Strikes me that moment is a funny word if you say it over and over, sounds like someone with a bad cold trying to say 'government'.

    I've been loosening up on 'proper' grammar over time - despite my angst over 'out/out of' before - including stripping a lot of 'correct' punctuation out of my stuff, leaving only enough to make meaning clear because I find it can stop the eye and spoil the flow.

    SEE MORE: Prostitute claims she made up accusations against Sen. Robert Menendez

    2. Don't end a sentence with a preposition


    This strange habit of putting links to other stories throughout the one you're reading irritating. The above combo made me read 2. as 'Don't end a sentence with a proposition'. Or, indeed, a proposition with a sentence?
  • Re: Yahoo! More grammar
    by EmmaD at 18:19 on 08 March 2013
    Also 'momentarily' which means for a moment, not in a moment's time, as far as I'm concerned.


    Well it's only what happened to "presently" a couple of centuries ago. Juliet calls "Presently!" to the nurse from the balcony, meaning "Now" - but it gradually shifted to mean "in a while".

    From "in the present" to "in an about-to-be present" I suppose.

    Momentarily's following the same road...


    <Added>

    I actually love language change. I think it's far, far more exciting than when it doesn't, and as many fab new words and uses come in as are lost, so I refuse to get cross about it, or join in with the inifinitely tedious grumbling that so many people seem to enjoy so much.

    It's a shame when a useful nuance gets lost, it's true: alternate/alternative, disinterested/uninterested

    but even then, half the time you can actually find the words used that way far further back than you think.
  • Re: Yahoo! More grammar
    by wordsmithereen at 15:20 on 09 March 2013
    Juliet calls "Presently!" to the nurse from the balcony, meaning "Now" - but it gradually shifted to mean "in a while".


    In my copy, she says 'anon' and 'by and by' not 'presently'. But in the context of the balcony scene, 'presently' would mean 'in a while', just as 'anon' and 'by and by' would, not 'now'. To my mind it can mean either, depending on context, rather like 'record' (although of course the two uses of 'record' have different emphases, depending), but I don't know if that was always the case.

    It's a shame when a useful nuance gets lost, it's true: alternate/alternative, disinterested/uninterested


    But that's more than a nuance, that's a completely different word and meaning. That's not language changing or developing, it's just the misapplication of a word which is a result of either laziness or ignorance, IMO.

    I refuse to get cross about it, or join in with the inifinitely tedious grumbling that so many people seem to enjoy so much.


    Well, I know there is a fashion these days for educated people - like Stephen Fry - to say such things but I think it's a bit of a pseudo-intellectual pose and 'infinitely tedious' in its own right. I believe the misuse of words erodes the language rather than expanding it and throws up many, many opportunities for muddiness of understanding. Likewise the misuse or excision of punctuation and deliberate misspellings (nite for night). New words, fine, but don't mess with alternative meanings for the old ones. And I don't mean alternate.

    Yes, some things have changed meaning over time, but not overnight. 'Depending', for instance, no longer means hanging from something - except in a metaphorical sense. It takes time for words to metamorphose into another kind of word and, in so doing, lose their ability to confuse and leave their original meaning behind to delight lovers of archaic language.
  • Re: Yahoo! More grammar
    by Jem at 23:06 on 11 March 2013
    Oh yes - I hate the misuse of "presently". Or rather, the Americanisation of it. I also get really annoyed when British people say "gotten" instead of "got". I love language change too - but some things just get to me!