I'm quite happy that you scrap "you" and "one" and just use "Colin"

My Editorial experience has been in the world of magazines and newspapers. I have had limited experience of Literary Editors (L.E’s) but there does seem to be a whole raft of services offered for Authors and Writers of Literary fiction.

The first question that comes to mind is how ‘good’ are these services? By ‘good’ I mean effective, resulting in help and improvements that lead to having one’s precious baby sitting on the bookshelves.

We can talk about always aiming to become a ‘better’ writer and, indeed , our own WW site does provide Members with what I think is invaluable help. However I feel that the vast majority of people who write will never make the bookshelves, with or without help and advice from L.E’s.

It concerns me when I read of past published Authors whose co-operation with an L.E resulted in having great chunks, thousands of words, deleted from their manuscripts. I do not consider this to be a recommendation for that Author to be called a ‘good’ writer. Like an Artist, a writer should be aware of all aspects of his/her creation, particularly on the question of length of manuscript. I have a sneaking admiration for writers whose attitude is one of ‘get stuffed, just do a good proof reading job’. If nothing else this displays a confidence (even a conceit) in their own writing abilities.

I am not against using the services of L.E’s but I think their value can be limited for many unpublished writers. Of course the Members who have been through the process and have successfully published will give recognition as to the ‘value’ of the services he/she received. Even those as yet unpublished writers who have paid fees will need to justify their decision with a complimentary nod and a wink.

Conversely we hear reports that published authors, who have received close collaboration from an effective L.E., exclude any references or acknowledgements to that L.E. It is not easy therefore for me to say what I think makes an L.E. a ‘good’ one but there is one genre where I can fully appreciate almost a ‘need’ for good L.E.’s - this is in the Children’s books market. This seems so easy to many would-be writers but it demands more ‘skills’ and understanding of the audiences than most other genre.

Len

I can safely say that without a LE I would never have been published, and there's nothing wrong in that, and nothing to be ashamed of. Novel writing is unlike any other of the arts; artists, musicians, dancers, sculptors, actors almost always attend some kind of school before they have honed their craft enough to go public. No matter how talented they are, they need years of training beofre they can face the public.

Attending a writing school, on the other hand, may help you with certain basic techniques, but it can't teach you how to write a novel. The only way to learn how to write a novel is to actually write one. And many if not most published authors never attended a writing class, do not have an MA in creative writing. Novel writing is something that may just descend on you, grab you by the scruff of your neck, force itself on you. It does not demand that you first attend a class. As a result, for many that first novel is a huge unmitigated mess. And yet - it may have the jewel of a great story hidden within it.

Once you have your mess you need help sorting it out. A one-on-one qualified editor can certainly help you locate and amend the flaws. Sure, it may never get published; but it's the actual working on it, over and over again, that teaches a good writer to be a great one.

My very first novel was 700 pages long in first draft. I actualy found an agent for it; she had just started out at the time so I was lucky. She spent hours working with me on it. The first time I visited her she showed me the thing with pages and pages crossed through. She told me why; and from that I learned to write tight the next time. We reduced it to 400 pages, and it was much better (but still never found a publisher).

Until you have reached a high degree of proficiency it's always good to listen to others as well as to yourself. I've learned to distinguish between what work really needs doing,and what I know is OK as it stands; you get an ear for it. The "never change a comma of mine" attitude is dangerous; even established authors can get into a rut and fail to see what isn't working. A humble yet clear attitude is better: an attunement to the spirit of your story, and a fine feeling for what wil improve it and what not. You can't always see this yourself.

I can see things I agree with in both of those posts (Len and Aruna). But what I hate to see in any novel is a lengthy acknowledgement list. All this kind of crap: "I'd like to thank my agent for their endless help and support, for picking my script out of the pile and seeing the potention; and my sister for proof reading, and my mother for buying the paper" etc etc, bla-de-bla-yak-yak-yak. It makes me cringe. Some first novelists think they're Gwyneth Paltrow at the fucking Oscars.

Part of the illusion of a novel is that it is written by a single person. People on the inside might know otherwise, but spelling it out in a thanks page breaks that spell and makes you wonder how good the writer actually is.

Literary services are a good help, but so is picking up a book on technique, so is reading fiction by other writers, so is sitting at the computer for endless hours writing your script, cutting it down, rewriting.

A lot of things go into writing a first novel, including the years and years of practice and failure that went beforehand, and all those other scripts, unfinished chapters and occasional chunks in your bottom drawer or in the back of your hard drive.

Literary Editors are just another tool; a service that a writer can use if they know how to. A word processor won't make you a writer, neither will a gold-tipped fountain or your mother buying the paper, your agent being supportive or someone a hundred miles away circling the typos on your script for £4 per thousand words.

For most of the journey, you are the person in the chair.

Colin
(morning! I think I need coffee)

<Added>

potention?? shurely shome mishtake?

Hi Aruna,

What you say makes good common sense. It does raise quite a few other aspects such as cost of using the services of a LE - presumably your LE was both good as an Editor and as an Agent... most would-be authors have great difficulty in finding someone who will represent them, let alone spend hour upon hour providing the editorial services. To reduce a manuscript from over 700 to 400 pages demands Faith, Hope and Charity together with a very high degree of confidence in one's critical ability.
You state that your agent was just starting out and that even the first novel never found a publisher.
This sounds like an expensive learning trip for someone.

I know you are right for you are one of those writers who have passed through the publishing door and can talk with authority and from personal experience, but consider the challenge from the point of view of an unpublished writer... the finding of suitable L.E. The vital word here is 'suitable', for the web is festooned with editorial services and, if you have the money, then I don't believe any of these services would turn away your business. How does one differ, select or choose a service that will be of most help?

Writing is a continious process of self-education and self-enlightenment. Criticism is an invaluable lesson but the status of the critic is of fundamental importance for there is always the risk of original writing being 'weakened' or influenced too greatly.

Len








<Added>

'continious'..? sorry about that. I'll have to drink weaker coffee.

Sharon,

I had a very similar experience to you. I was lucky on two counts: that my first editor took a chance on me, when many had turned down the book because it needed so much work – not that I knew that, or would have accepted it if told. Secondly, she was one of the best around, very patient and a good natural psychologist. I'm not sure if you're right about most published authors not having attended writing classes, etc, but one thing they do have in common is the experience of being edited which, if done well, is more like a masterclass, one that every writer needs.

As with everything, there's a balance to be had. A writer needs on the one hand to have passion driving his story on; on the other, he needs to listen to someone with skill and objectivity, to help give that passion its clearest expression. Too much passion without skill will produce a rant; too much listening without passion will produce an EC Directive.

Colin,

Gwyneth Paltrow aside, I think there is value in writers acknowledging the help they've received. For one thing, it helps new writers realise that it's a myth, the notion that the author as banged down the story and it's been printed just like that, with no input from anyone else. But it also helps agents, publishers' editors, freelance editors, etc get some notice for their work. In the past, I've helped authors considerably on individual books and whereas I don't get too personally upset if they don't acknowledge my input in their 'thanks' page, from a professional stand-point it would be helpful if they did.

Len,

You've been making a valid point, which I notice the head of the Literary Agency hasn't yet answered, which is how do you know who's a good LE? There's no simple answer, obviously. I've seen reports by LEs – for agencies and colleges – that I wouldn't have paid money for. And I've seen others that are an absolute God-send to the author, in terms of saving them years of potential blind alleys. I recently wanted a report on my TV writing, since this is an area I intend to go into more seriously soon. How did I find a good LE? Well, it was a combination of word of mouth, checking her work with other people, looking at her credentials and finally talking to her on the phone. She wasn't cheap but she was very good: her report was like a surgeon's knife – cutting through the stuff that clogged the flow and (have to drop the analogy here) highlighting the bits that did work. It was an exhilarating experience, reading that report: I was getting great, time-saving, advice on what worked and what didn't. Without it, I probably would have spent years continuing to produce flawed scripts and getting them turned down. Which isn't to say that my first script is going be taken: but at least, I know it'll have it's best chance to be.

Terry

Friend, I was lucky in that the first agent I had, the one who worked on the script with me, did it al for free as she expected to sel it. She didn't; and I felt very indebted to her afterwards. It was like a one-on-one Masterclass...

With my second novel, I simply hied the one that seemed the most qualified; i saw her ad in Writers' magazine, tried her out first with a partial ms, and then went on to submit the full. It was similar to what terry said; she identified exactly the areas that needed working on and gave me one tip that helped me to see the ms in a whole new light and rewrite the whole thing with a totally different structure, It was a lot of work, but it was worth it... and then she liked the finished product so much she passed it right on to an agent she knew, who took me on right away, and found a publisher. So considering what followed up, and the advance I got, the money was very well spent and I;d do it again if I was starting over.

Colin, there's know substitute for good hard work on your own ms, but sometimes an external eye can do a world of good. One thing I'm afraid of is the conceit that everything I write is perfect as it is...

I'm all for external help. I think it's a good thing, but it occasionally comes across in acknowledgement pages that the author is secondary to the people they are thanking.

I guess it's up to the individual. It's nice to be thanked for helping someone out, but do you need thanks for providing a service that you charge a fee for? Personally, I don't think so. Would you thank PCWorld for providing a PC, a printer and paper, or Microsoft for providing Word? No, because you've paid for them.

Colin

Colin, I have to say that's a rather black and white attitude. No, I don't feel gratitude to PC World for providing a basic service that, for the most part, anyone could provide. But I do feel tremendous gratitude to my friend who works in IT and has saved my hard drive, installed my wireless router, boosted my memory (if only he could do that with my biological one!), and more – all things I don't have the skill to do, and probably PC World doesn't either.

Yes, you pay a good editor but what makes an editor a good one is that he will add extra value, because he cares about writing, and not just provide the literal bare bones service he's contracted to. For instance, my TV editor spent a couple of hours on the phone with me that wasn't paid for and while a degree of this was chat, she also gave me lots of tips and a couple of fantastic contacts in the business that I wouldn't have found for myself. For that I'm grateful and if I ever get a script commissioned and if it ever receives a prize, you'll see me blubbing into camera and thanking her along, no doubt, with several others (well, you won't see this because you'll have sensibly switched off at the first sign of moist eyes).

Terry

My only point is that a long list of thanks, particularly thanks on technical things like editing, shatter the illustion that when you sit down with a novel, you are listening to the thoughts of one person.

I'd rather leave the printed thanks to one or two names, and thank everyone else with a bottle of whisky and a card. I believe in giving thanks, just not in giving the impression that a novel is a corporate product.

Colin

Not sure what this thread is about. Is it about whether you need an editor or whether you should thank said editor?

I personally think that if "one" wants to be published in today's market, they "one" needs an editor. I know I do. You can go on as many courses as you like, buy all the how to write books that Amazon sell, proof read, work on the show not tell, etc etc but you will still need an outside eye to pick up weak characters, weak settings, weak plot lines. The story is undoubtedly that of the author not the editor but often the author will know their world and their characters so well, then when they edit their own work, their mind fills in the blanks. I think a good editor is invaluable.

As to the thanks - depends on how much work has been done. If you've posted off your ms to an editor, paid the fee and then re-worked the story based on their comments, then maybe you don't need to thank them. You paid them a fee for a service which they have provided. If you have more in depth feed back / discussions or if the editing relationship is ongoing, then I think thanks are definitely in order.

Sue

<Added>

oops - typos. See I DO need an editor!

I'm all for thanking people, but those great long acknowledgments I find very disingenous. They look humble, but actually they're saying 'it's only little me, but just see how many famous people I know, how many supporters I have!' Oscar-winner's burblings are fair enough - it's a collaborative art form where the director depends on the cameraman as much as the actor depends on the costume department, but writing is still basically an individual artform, where editors and other helpers are helping more invisibly to get an individual vision across.

Emma

Quite often, the editor doesn't just help with the manuscript, but also counsels an author for hours on the phone, going to great lengths to cheer them up if they're having a crisis of confidence (or another kind of crisis), and is there for them - on a Saturday night, perhaps, because of course writers are often on a different timetable to, err... 'normal' people. But of course that's not all editors, nor all writers, but maybe that's partly where the gushing comes from. Personally, as an editor I've never been very interested in seeing my name in 'another person's book' - not that I'm ungrateful, just that I don't expect it...the greatest compliment is being asked to look at another work by that same author, as then you know you've earned their trust.

Myrtle

Myrtle, yes, it's true of course: that's where professional involvement overlaps with private support! Diana Athill has a story of being rung up in the middle of the night by Jean Rhys, who seems to have been someone who really just couldn't cope with ordinary life very well, because she was cold, but couldn't unscrew the top of her hot water bottle in order to fill it up!

Emma