Hi

I always thought that apostrophes identified belonging. However, when I recently wrote 'as her 1970’s house was spacious', this was identified as not needing an apostrophe.

Is this the case in this instance, or am I misinterpreting the use of the apostrophe here? I thought that by inference I was saying that the house was of a style that

belonged

to the 1970s.

Thank you in advance.

The apostrophe has been dropped in a few cases, so I think I'm right in saying, yes it's now considered okay to use 1970s.

That's the way I do it and it hasn't been picked up yet.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong though.

Kat x

It's more normal to leave out the apostrophe. I don't have my copy of Butcher's 'Copy-Editing' here (the bible of copy editing) but I'm pretty certain it leaves out apostrophes in decades. The Oxford Guide to Style (also v widely used) certainly does.

Here are a couple of links on this (you have to scroll down to the end of the second to see the date example)

http://www.eng-lang.co.uk/ogs.htm#5.2.2
http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/apostrophe

I was told that Americans write 1970's, but we write 1970s.

Thanks for these.

In terms of the date or numbers, if I say 'the 1990s were a great decade' or the 'Year 11s stood outside', I have always noted that it is without an apostrophe, as in the example given but my query relates to what if the word following the date sort-of 'belonged' to the date.

eg. If fashion was of the sixties - eg I would put 60's style fashion, rather than 60s style fashion.

Ditto, the Year 11's outing, as the outing belonged to the Year 11s.

So, to me, it follows that a 1970's house would have an apostrophe as it belonged to the era. I guess I must be wrong though.


<Added>

Or maybe it's because the house is of the 70s, rather than belonging to it. Lightbulb moment... I think.

To me 'of the 70s', or 'a 1960s sweater dress' are descriptive - the phrases describe something with reference to when it was made. They aren't possessive - the house/dress/whatever isn't 'owned' by the decade.

Hope that makes sense

<Added>

Just seen your addition - yes, exactly.

I'd agree that there is today no need to use the apostrophe for the various reasons given above. However, it's perhaps worth mentioning that in earlier times an apostrophe was used for these decade numbers even when no descriptive or possessive use was involved, e.g. 'In the 1930's we used to...'

I believe this was because of the other use of the apostrophe - to indicate that letters have been omitted from a word, as in a roadsign for Hammersmith B'dway. The numerals were considered to be an abbreviation equivalent to omitting the letters - hence the need for an apostrophe to indicate that those letters were missing. It's certainly no longer necessary in those circumstances.

Chris

Thanks everyone. I was confusing belonging to the period with of the period.

Sorted

Maybe if you thought about how you would write the number in words it might make things clearer. For instance: I wore double-decker shoes in the seventies (no apostrophe needed), but trainers in the eighties. Then again, I completely flucked up my mind in the ninetie's and could be completely wrong!

Hi Andy

Thanks for this. It wasn't the dates and apostrophes that were the confusion - but I note I could have improved my grammar to allay confusion - but the date when it sort-of belongs to something.

Sorted now, but thanks for confessing you flucked your mind in the 90s. Be interested to know how

The basic rules here are as follows:

1. If the s is added to indicate possession (e.g. Paul's dog, or the children's ball), then you need an apostrophe before it (or after it, if the word is plural and the possession is by the collective - such as: their Lordships' limousines).

2. If the s is added to indicate plurality (which I believe to be the case for things like 1970s - you're referring to an entire decade, not just 1970), then you do NOT need an apostrophe. In fact, adding one to make a plural is incorrect, strictly speaking (although it gets done an awful lot). Such a misplaced apostrophe is referred to as a greengrocer's apostrophe, because of its predominance on shop signs.

3. If letters or words have been omitted prior to the s (such as: He's building his own home), then the apostrophe is placed where the omitted letters would go.

To me, the phrase "her 1970s house" means "her house which was built in the 1970s", and the s is added to make the number refer to a decade rather than just one year. It's therefore a plural, not a possessive, and should not have an apostrophe before the s. If the phrase really were "her 1970's house" it would mean "her house which was built in 1970" (i.e. it would refer to a specific year, not a decade).

This is a case where a misplaced (greengrocer's) apostrophe would impart a subtly different meaning to the intended one. It's an example of why this sort of grammar can be very important: the entire meaning of the phrase turns on whether the apostrophe has been correctly used or not. It's also an example of where the phrase in writing is able to be more precise than if spoken - you can't hear an apostrophe when the phrase is spoken.


<Added>

If you wanted to indicate possessive for the whole decade, rather than just 1970, then the correct position for the apostrophe would be after the s, not before it: her 1970s' house. However, I believe that to be incorrect, because I don't think the phrase is a possessive. I think "1970s" is being used as an adjective, not a possessive noun.

Blimey! I thought I understood this until Alex took a page to describe it!

Wow, I'm more intelligent than I realised. I understood it. Thanks Alex!

<Added>

The intelligent comment is in relation to Jem's. Not because I generally go around professing to be intelligent.

I've learned enough other languages to know how to unpick this kind of grammatical question, that's all. Or maybe I've been able to learn other languages because of being able to unpick them. I'm not quite sure which way round it is.

I agree with Alex, the s here is plural not possessive. You can test it by substituting a single year to see if it makes sense. You wouldn't say "her 1971's house", it sounds horrible. You'd say "her 1971 house".

Similarly you don't need a possessive s on the decade.