I'm considering enrolling in an evening course at a local adult community college. I can get this type of course paid for by work (result!). The one I'm looking at is Creative Writing for Publication NOCN level 3. It runs for an academic year with various modules including novels, short fiction etc. It is aimed at 'confident' writers and the final qualification is equivalent to an A Level.
I understand these courses are run all over the country. Has anyone else been on one of these, any feedback?

Do they say who the tutor(s) is or are? That would be my first question.

Frances

I've applied for an MA in Creative Writing. I haven't got a clue how I'm going to pay the fees. If there is anyone incredibly rich on the site, I'll take donations by paypal



colin m

It doesn't specify a tutor but Adele Ramet(sp?) used to teach this at another adult education centre in my area, it could be her.

Gina.

This is an interesting thread. I've considered this too, but I don't know much about it, I'm afraid. I'd love to hear what other people have to say. I think, if nothing else, taking evening classes would get you writing. This site does that, too, of course.

Colin, where are you doing your MA? Lots of published authors seem to mention MAs in their book jackets. You'll be able to use your advances to pay off your loan in the future, eh? Good luck!

Luisa

Newcastle. There's two universities in the city that do similar courses. Uni of Northumbria and Newcastle Uni.

The fee £3,500 for one and £4000 for the other. That's full time, and half that, paid twice over two years for the part time course.

Colin M

I have been down both routes. Over a number of years I took four or five different evening classes run by the Centre for Continuing Education at Reading University (or "evening classes" in old money). Last academic year I took an MA at Bath Spa University College. Indeed, I've also spent many years involved in 'the third way' which no one has explicitly mentioned, that is a mixture of self- and mutual- education....by which I mean the type of learning that can be had by exploring resources online, in libraries, joining a writing group etc.

I've found each of these approaches valuable. In making a decision about what's the right route for you...here are a few things to consider.

(a) The cost. It's dull but true. If £3,000+ and a year's loss of earnings isn't financially feasible then a full-time taught MA probably isn't the best route. There are part-time or distance-learning options which may be more feasible. Consider how many evening classes, writing workshops, paid critiques, literature festival talks etc you could get if you put together your own curriculum for the same money.

(b) The time. And your relationship with it. Developing writing is a lengthy business. But is it important to you to pack all your learning into 12-18 months or are you prepared to set out on a five year (plus) mission?

(c) The intensity. How do you operate best when learning and working? Do you want to immerse yourself in an experience 24/7 for a long period and really concentrate on it. Or would giving up the day job just result in a lot of tea and toast consumed and not many words? Do you function better by giving yourself regular uninterupted windows to write and deadlines plust the stimulus of a weekly meeting with other writers rather than essays to compose and set books to read?

(d) The direction. Do you like being given a route-map for your journey or do you want to beat your own trail? Do you want someone else to determine the range of options for study or would you rather pick and choose your own patchwork?

So, that's not any sort of an answer. Just some things to consider I think. There's masses of choice out there now in terms of taught MA's, full and part time, online courses, online workshops, evening classes. The Open University are soon to offer a BA level course, the Open College of the arts do writing courses. Most local universities and adult education colleges offer courses now. Some libraries and many local areas have writing groups. The WEA also fund study. Your local public library should have a host of brochures and prospectuses available now for courses starting in the autumn...

I don't think there is any one answer. I think it depends on who you are and where you are on your own particular writing education journey...the advantage of 'starting small' with a few classes is that you're not putting all your eggs in one basket. You can see what you like and whether it meets your needs and if you find that you really want a more intensive experience you'll probably be better placed to get accepted on an MA course and better equipped to work with other writers in terms of giving and receiving feedback, just as you will if you're already accustomed to that process here at WriteWords.

Them's me thoughts, for what they's worth...

Mazzy

Thanks for that Mazzy.

It certainly does give me something to think about.
I'm in a lucky position in that the class will be paid for by my company although it's nowhere near as expensive as an MA.
I think I will apply, if nothing else it will force me to write on a more regular basis. It will mean that I have to 'come out' to friends and family, not many people know I write but I will have to tell them if I'm doing an evening course. That's a scary thought.
Also, great as this site is, it would be nice to spend some time with other writers 'in the flesh' as it were. I'll be disappointed if the critiques are not the standard on here though.

Gina.

Excellent advice, Mazzy. I think you're right to say in effect that with creative writing it's best to find a course, tutor, book, whatever, that's going to bring out the best in you as an author. Obtaining a degree in creative writing, for example, will perhaps get an agent or publisher to take your cover letter seriously but it won't necessarily sell your book.

One thing I should perhaps update you is the Open College of the Arts. Last week, 35 creative writing tutors resigned on the same day (including me). I won't go into the details but one of the main issues was the very poor pay we received and the fact the college would not negotiate. If you are conscientious - and I am - it worked out at less than £5 per hour, and that doesn't include all the extra unpaid time required filling in college forms. In other words, the tutor gets only a small proportion of the students' fee. Given that the OCA courses are not towards a degree (although writers can apply for accreditation) but mainly to help people become better writers, they would get a much better service by going to tutors privately. Not only would they basically get more time for their money, but the relationship would be much more flexibly arranged to suit the writer's particular needs.

Incidentally, I should point out that this decision was not taken lightly and only after a lot of heart-searching and discussion.

Terry

Good stuff Terry, you and your colleagues telling them to stuff it - that Open College thing sounds like rank exploitation.

One thing I've puzzled over - with all these courses around the country (two in Newcastle alone!) - who teaches on them? Are there enough teachers to go round? Must be, I guess. But I wouldn't have thought the world was so well supplied with writing teachers. And all of a sudden, too. This must be one of the biggest growth areas in Education. It's the speed of market response that amazes me. Were some of the teachers already teaching other courses in the 'varsity? Courses which got wiped out due to lack of demand (and ability of students to cope, perhaps) like Chemistry, Physics, Forensic Science ... oh no, sorry, Forensic Science is another boom area ... let me see, creative writing, forensic science ...

How about a new detective series, where the detective teaches writing and forensics ... or wait! a team, a sort of Batman and Robin thing, or Tristan and Iseult, or Steptoe and Son ... maybe a husband and wife duo, she writes existential thrillers (and she's champagne blond, bubbly), he analyses the bits that drop off (and he's got Grecian 2000 hair, rugged jaw, manly pipe, and translates Icelandic sagas in his time off), or no, better make the woman the scientist ...no, she's better as the writer and they work at the University of ... where ... should it be metropolitan, big big city, central location ex-Poly type place for a bit of grit, or should we go 'heritage' to the home of lost spires and dreaming causes, the University of Somewhere Windswept and Damp...

She's called Perdita and he's called ... oh I dunno, Pedro, because he's really a Mexican, so the series is called "Pedro and Perdita", and they need a butler, like Alfred or that guy in Hart to Hart.

Joe

JoPo, what are you on! It's brilliant, write it!
On another note, I've been reading about a book called Atlanta Nights - 'the worst book ever written.' Maybe it's a new market to go with our 'new' reality-trash culture?

Elspeth

JoPo

The reason the world is so well-supplied with writing teachers is because the world is so poorly endowed with regular remunerative occupations for fiction writers and poets...and so generously endowed with would-be novelists and poets....

Cynical, moi? It's just the basic laws of supply and demand. And I wish very good luck to anyone who is making some reasonable money from sharing and passing on their skills by teaching...as Terry has pointed out, even doing that isn't an easy option.

Mazzy

Joe,

I agree with Mazzy, you should do it!

I once started a story based on a pair of amateur detectives I knew about. They worked for quite a large company and did the detective stuff in their spare time, mainly for work colleagues, and didn't want to be paid. In my friend's case (the male thinker), he just liked finding out people's secrets. His side-kick was, according to him (I never met her) young, blonde and very attractive (not his partner, by the way – God knows what she made of all this), who everyone thought was stupid but who had razor-sharp instincts. They became very popular, mainly with people who wanted to find out if their partners were cheating on them. I think – but I'm not sure, because this was too dark for me – he may also have helped them with their revenge strategies. I do remember him telling me once that he always asked a potential client if they would be able to handle the fly-back of revenge, the negative vibes, etc, because in his experience people couldn't. It's curious, now I think about, but this one character has already given me the basis for two books and could supply loads more.

A good question, about who teaches creative writing courses. With the OCA, I applied to them. I'd already done quite a bit of teaching in Local Authority evening classes, and I'd edited some books. I sent them references from two of my previous editors, and they gave me the job. There was no interview, and the courses I took were postal. I was concerned that they didn't provide any feed-back – good or bad – on my first reports, so just assumed no news was good news. Later, my senior tutor, on her own initiative, asked several of us for sample reports which she then commented on. The feeling I got when she told me how good mine were, and that she wanted to use them as examples, showed me that no matter how confident you may be in your own ability, you still need feed-back. She then tried to get the college to adopt tutor feed-back as a practice, but they weren't interested. Worse, it appears as if they didn't even read any of our reports.

Now I tutored on the children's writing course. The college has just lost almost all its creative writing tutors. The children's writers' world in the UK is quite a small one, and I know that most of them are already engaged in various teaching/tutoring/workshop activities. So, the question has to be, where are they going to find replacements? Before, they had people approach them who would only do so because they had experience to offer. Now, they're going to have to trawl round themselves, and you have to wonder what they'll find.

I have to be careful what I say, but obviously some tutors/editors/readers are better than others. And it's true that demand for tutoring services has increased quite a bit in the past few years. Quality control is down to the senior staff of colleges or the director of literary consultancies. Complicating the picture is the fact that, frankly, some badly written books get published. Recently, I wrote a report on a Potter-ish children's novel. It showed some promise but was a total mess – no plot, characters and events dropped into the story simply to spark it up a bit, then forgotten. I wrote a very detailed, honest report. The author then came back with selected pages from three other reports he'd had from another review agency, to prove that his book was actually brilliant. In fact, the criticisms they made were very similar to mine. The problem was, their style is obviously to couch criticism in lots of upbeat encouragement. They'd actually told him that he should look for an agent, that he'd have no trouble getting published and that his book was reminiscent of Pullman, Colfer and Rowling (strange bedfellows, to say the least). I strongly believe this is the wrong approach to take with new writers. So, I don't say much about marketability and concentrate instead on helping them, basically, express themselves more clearly.

I'm rambling. What I think I'm trying to say is that the best tutors/editors tend to find work more through word of mouth than by association (which is probably true of most professions).

When's your book coming out by the way? I want to read it.

Terry


<Added>

Apologies to Elspeth - I agree with you, not Mazzy. Well, I don't mean I don't agree with Mazzy, just that I agree with you over ... I'll just get me coat.

Terry

You say, talking of advice you give to neophyte writers:

"I don't say much about marketability and concentrate instead on helping them, basically, express themselves more clearly."

Alpha-plus there, Terry, for integrity. I taught in Further Education for 13 years, alongside some great colleagues, and I recognise the commitment to honesty. It's one thing to encourage people and build their confidence (and as a teacher I tried to do this ... sometimes with success, sometimes not) - but how anyone could do this without attending to basics is beyond me. We don't do anyone a favour by encouraging makebelieve.

As for the book - it's coming out next year, from Jonathan Cape. The contract was signed in February this year, and says they guarantee to publish within 18 months, in either hardback or 'trade paperback'. We haven't started editing yet, but I expect to hear before too long about when my 'landing slot' becomes free etc. Dan Franklin of Cape is handling it - so I'll let him take his time, he's a guy who knows what he's about. So maybe this time next year? I'm pretty lucky getting Cape to take it (thanks a million to the intern at Rogers, Coleridge and White who first spotted it, and the agent, Gill Coleridge, for her skill in selling it). It's coming out under my meatspace handle 'Jim Younger' and it's called 'High John the Conqueror'. I took the title from Willie Dixon/Muddy Waters, so there's nothing original about that. But I think the book has a queer touch of its own (if I may be allowed a prideful moment).

Has there been any further business with the Open College revolt? I really think you're right to stand up here on this issue, and you have my admiration on that(for what its worth).

Joe

Joe,

You may have seen a recent thread on here, where there was quite a bit of resistence in some quarters to me insisting that the basics have to be learned in order to express one's creativity. Unfortunately, Harry Potter can be held up as a successful example of a writer who hasn't mastered the basics but has made a lot of money. Fine, just as long as no one confuses the two.

Great title for your book, even if you did nick it. You will let us all know when it's out, won't you?

I haven't heard anything yet from the Open College. They appear to be in denial at present. I can't say too much at the moment, but it looks as if some of us will be banding together to do try to do it like it should be done. I'll tell you more when it's definite.

My increasing feeling is that new writers need to find someone with experience who can mentor-edit them, possibly for longer than they might expect. It looks to me as if two gaps have opened up in recent years, between where a new writer wants to be (i.e published) and where they're actually heading. One is the lack of a grasp of the basics, and that often includes even grammar and punctuation, and the other is the increasing business-like operation of a lot of publishers. On the latter, I really think publishers (and agents) should be more honest about a) a new writer's actual chances of publication, and b) provide advice about what they need to do before they will realistically stand a better chance. There's no apprenticeship in novel writing – you either get published or you don't. (I haven't done an MA so can't say if they provide good basic training.) My own freelance editing/reviewing is guiding me more towards this need, and I'm going to look to try and establish it in some shape or form in the collaboration I was talking about just now.

Terry