Maybe we should simply consider if something is fit for purpose?

Deb

a) Is it a page turner?

b) Does it sell?

Draw a quadrant with x=sells and y=page turner.

This is a perception map.

Plot yuor stories to compare.

Those aren't the only criteria, Joesi, though, are they? I mean, some books which win prizes don't sell very well and wouldn't be described as page-turners.

And the "sells" metric is not very useful as it, by definition, means that all unpublished (unsold) manuscripts are bad up until the point they have been published and made it onto the bestseller list... which isn't very likely as nobody will want to buy a "bad" book...

And the "sells" metric is not very useful as it, by definition, means that all unpublished (unsold) manuscripts are bad up until the point they have been published and made it onto the bestseller list.

That is a very good point.

A definition: Fiction is good when it wastes not one second of a reader's time achieving its purpose. I think that's the quality people recognise when they find a read satisfying.

Pete

So... Ah... Can you define "waste"? I mean, quite a large number of people see books as a way to pass time, time they could spend learning a skill or socialising or catching up with the diy or...

Well, waste within the context of reading the story obviously, not in any more general context. And in that context waste means writing which is unnecessary to the furthering of the story.

I think there are many sorts of "good", but for me the key is the author's ability to create and maintain an authentic-feeling story-world. If a book doesn't draw me into its own reality (in whatever form that may take), then I am unlikely to think of it as being good. Fiction creates an alternative reality, which can be close to or far removed from our own. In poor fiction, there are cracks and lumpy bits where the story-world fails to be believable when judged on its own terms, whereas in good fiction the alternative reality is seamless and believable (in context).

That's not to say that a good book has to come across as heartfelt and true to the author's own self/experience; in real life, we may be attracted to wonderful salt-of-the-earth types, but that does not stop us enjoying the artifice of the theatre. Nor does it mean that the book has to be realistic, or set in some heavily detailed fantasy world. For me, it just means that it has to hang together within its own framework and style.