Having just finished reading it, I'd be interested what folks think about the way it's handled within "Monstrous regiment" by Terry Pratchett. It has an interesting (well, to me) take on the gender issue.

Sorry if I've missed the point, but I'm new here ;o)

Glad everyone likes the 'gender-check' website - it's a testament to the fact that I never clear out my email programme that I still had the original email from the person who sent it to me, over a year ago!

After I'd posted it I got to thinking about writers who use 'cross-gender' protagonists, and it occurred to me that my all-time favourite male and female writers have both done it. Iain Banks did a female perspective in one of his novels, and Rose Tremain has done it at least once. Unfortunately I can't check which ones, as we're in Major House Refurb mode right now, and my lovely full wall of bookshelves is totally inaccessible due to having lots of furniture and crates of 'stuff' pushed up against them. Enough to give a book addict like me a nervous breakdown...

I also got to thinking not just about WHY we create characters of the opposite gender, but HOW. If I'm really, really honest, the three male protagonists who 'star' in my series of unpublished novels all have traits that I, personally, would find extremely attractive in a man. The main one is that none of them are sports-addicts. I happen to know quite a few men who, like me, have no interest in sport, but it has to be admitted that most are obsessed and others feign an interest so as not to be considered 'weird'. An obsession with rugby league is the one thing that really annoys me about my husband. It severely affects our social life and even our holidays have to be organised around the fixture list. But it's the 'need' to watch certain football matches on telly, even though he isn't a football fan, that REALLY gets up my nose. Having said that, the football thing is no longer a male preserve; it's a national obsession. These days it's very isolating to be the only person who couldn't care less how England 'get on', even though I can think of at least 3 other people who share my lack of interest - 1 female and 2 males. Is it then any wonder that I create fictional characters with whom I could sit in a pub and have a REAL conversation?

How many people, whether they create opposite-sex protagonists or not, write about characters they wouldn't get on with? If you're writing a novel, you 'live' with them for months, even years. Personally, I write for pleasure. My main characters are men probably because my husband (for all his faults, see above!) is my very best friend, and has been since I was 15 years old. Write what you know, but make what you know that bit more 'perfect'?

Julie

I agree, Julie. I think we create people we can't have in real life. I get the hots for Lewis, Fynn, Hugh, Leo and Owen. (you won't know most of them!) whether I could actually live with any of them... probably not, apart from Fynn because he can cook!

Is this an extension of the hero-fantasies young girls weave around stars and celebs? Is this why we can write from a male POV? Because we're steeped in the quest to know what men are like?

Does the opposite apply? Come on guys... fess up!

Dee

Dee

Still can't get this thread out my head. Set me wondering about it's application to movies.
So for consideration: I think there are some movies that could only have been made by men and similarly, women.

I don't think a woman could have made Brian de Palma's hateful, misogynistic Dressed to Kill. Or for entirely, different and deeper reasons, Claude Sautet's Un Coeur En Hiver.

Equally, only a woman could have made In The Cut (Jane Campion). It is also hard to think of any current male director creating the marvellous Lost in Translation (Sophia Coppola)

It is interesting that The Woodsman has been made by a woman, Nicole Kassell, from a play by Steven Fechter. As it deals sensitively with paedophilia and incest it could hardly be in more gender/sex complicated territory.

Have to be a little careful that we don't simply identify a 'woman's' POV with sensitivity and perceptiveness, especially about emotions - we ain't all gorillas.

Regards

Zettel

That's a really good point, Dee: if there is a difference between women writing male characters and men writing female ones, maybe it's because women might be said to be more inclined by nurture (if not nature) to analyse constantly the emotional state and processes of other people of both genders. (Feminists would say it's because men still have the economic and physical upper hand, and women have to keep observing them to stay safe and get anywhere - Maya Angelou makes the same point about black actors playing white people)

My novel has two narrators, one a man - an ex-soldier in 1820 - and the other a teenage girl in 1976. Because of her character I found Anna harder to write than Stephen. The only time that Stephen's gender demanded more imagination than writing any character does, was in his describing a sex scene, and that was helped by being in his 19th century voice. The men who've read Stephen - not all writers themselves - were entirely convinced, and the women mostly fell in love with him, as I have been for years.

I suspect writing in the other gender is liberating, particularly for writers in the past, where gender-roles were much more rigid. As the other sex, a writer could explore what was forbidden to them, to enjoy it themselves and understand it in others. For writers nowadays, perhaps writing as the other gender is more about distancing: there's safety in making it crystal clear to your family that your character is NOT YOU, before making them do/think/suffer/inflict things you wouldn't want anyone to think you had done/thought/suffered/inflicted yourself.

I think a good writer can write from either gender point of view. However the main point is whether that writing is convincing enough for the 'other sex' to accept the writing without question.

This depends on the thoughts, attitudes and emotional make-up of the reader.

There are no sharp 'borders' that separate men and women. If one were to list out the 'emotions and reactions' that would apply exclusively to men and the other list applying only to women, the result would be (I believe) nil on both sides. The last few decades has thrown a spotlight onto non-hetrosexuals illuminating this 'sameness' albeit from a predominantly sexual viewpoint.

If one refers to the 'easier' end of cross-gender writing - the inclusion of stereotype characters - I would not call that 'good or creative writing', but there are wonderful examples of truly excellent cross-gender writing. However usually this question doesn't arise when we read such work, we just accept the character as 'genuine'.

Len

I have to agree with Dee and Emma about this 'falling for your characters' thing. Frith, the MC in No Mystics (Ch 1 pt 2 now up for perusal, folks!), first appeared in a short story I wrote way back in my teens (30 years ago - how obsessive is that?) Can't remember what he was called, but the basic premise of a lad who got beaten by his father and then shit on by his girlfriend was already in place. When I revived it as my first attempt at a novel in my 20s, I really didn't like the character. He was too tall, too pretty and too much of a wimp, so I made him short, plain and prepared to fight back - and I've loved him ever since. Then there's Keith, MC of my second novel, 'Friday I'm in Love', who is also short but very good looking - he has to be pretty or the story wouldn't work. He shares the 3rd novel, working title 'Sex and Superstition', with a female MC, Carole, and I have to say I was loathe to let her have him! He's been superceded somewhat by his best mate Fran, MC of my latest work, 'Dead Rat Road', who's as plain and tough as Frith, but totally confused about his identity. No, I'm not sure I could live with any of them - even though they can all cook!

On the subject of other writers who 'cross-gender', the master for me, having given this lots of thought, is Armistead Maupin, a gay male who gives each of his characters a 'spotlight' chapter or so in his 'Tales of the City' series. He does gay males/females, hetero males/females and transgender characters equally well. A perfect example of a writer who just does people, and portrays them all with equal sensitivity. He's also extremely funny. I've got one more of the series still to read, and I'm saving it, because once it's gone I'll be bereft, because I love all his characters so much. I think that's why my characters move from novel to novel; I can't bear to part with them!

Julie

Oh, Julie! You’ve reminded me about Tales of the City. I love those books. I read the early ones and then lost track of them somehow. Must catch up with them. Thanks.

I know what you mean about leaving your own characters behind. I’m dragging my toes on the final edit of TWH because I don’t want to part with Fynn. I know this isn’t logical because my agent will probably suggest a rewrite, (assuming he doesn’t reject it out of hand ) but there’s something psychological about doing that final print and putting it in the post…

I’m half-way through another novel in which the MC, Leo, is a doctor at a hospital in Lancaster. That’s another ghost story. But then I decided to have a go at writing a crime novel… the MC was injured and rushed into hospital and, before I knew what was happening, there was Leo, muscling into a different novel, different genre… I kept telling him to butt out but he’s very persistent!

I’ll read your part 2 as soon as I can… liked the way you slipped in that plug there… a woman after my own heart – I invented the Shameless Plug.

Dee

Another interesting aspect of this subject is when a woman writer has a boy as MC or a man writer has a young girl as MC. For example, does Harry Potter 'work' for most readers? Richmal Crompton invented 'Just William' - a character I loved but I could never really accept as being a 'real' boy.

I do hope these Forum Topics don't become more infected by 'shameless plugs'... by the way, talking about children, my short 'Jolyon and the Chest' still remains in pristine condition.

Len

I feel that I should be starting this, "Hi, long time listener first time caller ..."

Interesting thread for me, because it's been a source of much frustration for me of late.

I've written a couple of novels - both unpublished, surprise surprise - the most recent of which was written from a first person female POV. My reason for doing this was initially because the content of the story drew a lot from my life at the time, and because I wanted the lead character to get as far away from my own personality as possible. If you knew me, you'd understand why.

So I made the character female and American, which seemed suitably distant from myself, yet not too unfamiliar.

It never occurred to me when I was writing the thing that my choice of gender would give me such a headache when it came time to trying to get the thing published. Shows how much I know.

I met with one small publisher a little while ago, who said they wanted to publish it (Hoo-ha, I thought. Hooray for me.). They admitted, after meeting with me, that they'd half expected me to be a woman, so convincing, apparently, was the character - and despite my name being Paul. Maybe they thought that was a typo. I really hadn't seen that coming. You could have knocked me down with a cricket bat - a feather would have merely irritated me. Soon after, the publisher decided that they weren't going to go ahead with publication, which I interpreted as meaning, "Man, what were we thinking? We'd never sell that thing. We need the next Dan Brown."

Recently, I had some contact with an agent who liked the book, wanted to rep it, but first wanted to "feel out" the market to see if it would be "responsive" to a first person female written by a guy. Again, I didn't think that it would be such a big issue, but the reaction was too similar to be coincidence. It seems that the market does have a problem with it, because the agent eventually declined (and finished by saying that he couldn't take on anything new unless it was the next Da Vinci Code - damn that Dan Brown, damn him to hell!).

In hindsight, I'd have stuck to my own gender, though it would have been a very different book in the end.

Has anyone else come across this kind of odd market prejudice, or is it just me? Is there a prevalent attitute out there that female first person equals chick lit? Should I change my name to Dan? Or J.K.?

Cheers, and I'll try to participate a little more on the site - it's a resolution/get off my arse thing.

Paul.

I don't know about books, but there is an awesome play called 'Defending the Caveman' by Rob Becker.
http://www.cavemania.com/
"Defending the Caveman" was written over a three year period between 1988-1991, during which time Rob made an informal study of anthropology, prehistory, psychology, sociology, and mythology.
It is a one man comedy. I went to see it with my wife and we both have never laughed so hard in our lives.
Despite the comedy, everything he says rings true. His basic premise is that men were hunters whereas women were gatherers. To hunt, one had to focus one's entire attention on the job at hand, otherwise you would be stepped on by a mamoth or skewered by a sabre toothed tiger. This translates into the modern day man being able to sit watching tv and not hear the baby crying or his wife talking to him.
Women on the other hand were out in groups gathering berries and stuff. Talking, multitasking, gahtering information etc... This translates into the modern couple going to visit another couple and on the way home the wife turns to the husband, "Do you know Ralph and Sue are having trouble with their marriage?" The husband replies, "No, but I know Ralph has a new skill saw". The wife then says, "It all happened after they lost their baby." Husband, "They lost a baby? The saw was five and a half horse power." Wife, "How can you have spent 6 hours with Ralph and learnt absolutely nothing?"


Anyway I think you get the idea. He deals in this same comical way with the different sexes attitudes towards sex etc... Very informative and I highly recommend it if you are trying to understand a little how the other side thinks.

My wife and I still refer to it years later.

Brian.

this thread got so long I couldn't read it all, so to go back, Dee, to your original piece, I experience the same thing, - being more comfortable writing from (what might be) a male POV. However, I often think it's just a 'person' POV, rather than a male one. But I'd be hard put to write anything that QWF, (Quality Women's Fiction) would be interested in, but that's partly because they are interested in women's issues and I'm not. And thinking about 'Tot's Wake', it may be that you too are more attracted to writing about things that are more likely to happen to men than women.
Does this just complicate the scenario? I do think though, that subject matter must have some part in all of this. 'Atonement' by - here we go again, - Thingy, is a convincing portrayal of a young girl growing into a woman, I thought.
Becca.

Dee, I feel more at home with women authors. But I can name one novelist who gets it and can write deeply from a woman's POV: John Updike. Have you read "In the Beauty of the Lilies"? There may be others, I need to read more contemporary literature.

In contrast, I keep starting my husband's J P Donleavy novels and can't get past the first few chapters. That's what I call a man book.


Regards, Alegria

I’ve just started reading Tell Me Lies by Tony Strong, written from the first-person POV of the main female character.

I’ve not heard of him before – I’ve checked and he is definitely a male ‘Tony’ (unless he’s fooling everyone) – the story is gripping and the female voice is wonderfully authentic. This set me thinking about my original question. I think, in this novel at least, the author has a well-developed empathy with women and has studied how women tick.

Has anyone else come across this author?

Dee

"I came across this thread by accident, but I suspect it may have been triggered by some of the comments on the opening scenes of my novel 'No Mystics' (downloaded on 22/2/05). I almost invariably write from a male perspective, but the psychology behind that decision is beyond me. Like someone else said, it could just be that I like men. I also still maintain that the 'debate' about the gender of my protagonist would never have happened if I'd 'hidden' my profile from the outset and therefore not revealed that I am, in fact, a girlie (a rather middle-aged girlie, I'm afraid).

Someone mentioned a website with a 'check your gender' facility for writers. The link was sent to me ages ago and fortunately I've still got it:
http://www.bookblog.net/gender/genie.html"

Sorry for resurrecting this thread but a strange thing happened. I did that "gender test" and it gave back that I am MALE for the prologue and FEMALE in chapter 2 and 3 - even though chapter 2 is with a male POV.
I wonder what is going on??? It tells me I am one butch chick!