Silly question time again!

Which is correct - 'years ago I dreamed of running my own tea room'

or

'years ago I dreamt of running my own tea room'

Kat

Emma, what's the book/website you often refer to for this like this - Mrs somebody or other?

I think it depends on what comes next. If you are going to relate any part of the dream, and she still has hopes of opening a tearoom, then I'd go with 'I dreamed...'
If, however, it was a one off, and she's dismissed the idea completely, then go with 'I dreamt..'

They're the same, aren't they? "I dreamt a dream" or "I dreamed a dream". Both are correct.

I agree both are correct To me it seems dreamt is more romantic and oold fashioned, as in 'Last night I dreamt I went to Manderley again.' But the choice might depend on the other words in the sentence and which fits best.

It occurs to me too that that dreamed is better if you have an object, i.e. 'I dreamed of how things might have been', not 'I dreamt of...' So that's once reason you wouldn't write I dreamt a dream.

It's a tricky one, though. Is there really a book you consult for these things? I mean apart from a book with past tenses of verbs?

Sheila

Yes it was a long ago dream, something she didn't fulfil.

Sheila, not sure if it's a vook or whatever, but Emma often finds the answer to these sort of grammar questions and I'm sure it's from somebody called Miss something or other!

I thought both were correct, but wasn't sure. Maybe one is American English?



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Vook? Book, duh!

I think different verbs vary: you don't see 'sleeped' or 'callt', do you.

In your example, Kat, I'd say either is fine. I rather like dreamt, because it reflects how I'd say it.

And you see many more -t endings in, say, Shakespeare, so I tend to find myself using them as they look more old-fashioned without being incomprehensible. I dug around in this for writing TMOL, and I remember noticing that with some where both -ed or -t versions exist, some used -ed for the verb and -t for when it was working as a participle modifying a verb (I think that's the terminology). Only I've got the afternoon brain-sleep, and can't think of an example.

But I can't think of the website you mean. Though I've just discovered David Crystal's website and blog, which might throw something up:

http://www.davidcrystal.com/

Emma



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Fowler to the rescue, although not exactly a rescue:

-t and -ed

Problems arise in a number of irregular verbs which have competing forms for the past tense and/or the past participle. They differ often in not only having rival forms in -t and -ed but also in some cases having a different vowel sound before the termination (e.g. leapt and leaped). Nor is it possible in every case to say in what circumstances the final sound is T or D, even when the word is spelt [nb - not 'spelled'] -ed.

The distribution of the varian forms in Britain and in English-speaking countries abroad is for the most part not determinable in any precise way, though in most of the verbs the Aericans show a marked preference for -ed. [my bold. I've noticed that - real Coca Cola moments with my US copy-editor]

The main verbs affected are:

bereave: bereft, bereaved
beseech: besought, beseeched
burn: burnt, burned
cleave; cleft, cleaved
dream: dreamt, dreamed
dwell: dwelt, dwelled
earn: (earnt), earned
kneel: knelt, kneeled
lean: leant, leaned
leap: leapt, leaped
learn: learnt, learned
smell: smelt, smelled
spell; spelt, spelled
spill; spilt, spilled
spoil: spoilt, spoiled
toss: (tost), tossed


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In other words, Kat, you're welcome to use either, but if it gets published in the US the copy-editor might want to make sure it's being 'dreamed'.

And apologies for crap copy-typing!

I wonder if it might be something to do with being Old English verbs, too, so possibly having only the t' form at one time and then adopting the more modern 'ed' regular past tense ending so they now have two forms. nI don't have Fowler, but my Chambers dictionary indicates if a word derives from Old English.

I always look twice when I see 'spelt as a word meaning flour made from chickpeas or smelt which I believe is a baby fish. Interestingly, cursed is not on the list, but suppose curst is always an adjective nowadays, with accursed as an alternative.Blessed, or blest, might be another, which takes an accent on the last syllable when it's the older version, eg. 'The bless-ed damosel.

Sheila

Sheila, bless you: I think curst/cursed and blest/blessed are the examples I was looking for, where the -t version has become largely an adjective. Which is presumably why they don't crop up in Fowler's list, because the two aren't still in competition to be the verb form.

And with the -ed form, of course, there's the question of whether you pronounce the -èd, and that can vary depending on whether it's working as an adjective or a verb. Maybe I'm weird but I wouldn't use 'blest' myself, but would say 'He blessed me' but 'the blessèd thing broke'

Emma

Is it just me, or does the ed ending of these particular verbs have a faint connotation of past continuous in the memory. E.g. Burnt leaves are utterly charred and dead, burned leaves still have embers glowing. A dreamt dream is dealt (dealed) with and stashed in the mind, a dreamed dream is still vivid?

Thanks for that info Emma

Maybe it was Miss Snark or Hart's rules I was thinking of for that book/website?

I'm going with dreamt, as that's what I'd say myself.

Kat x

Hart's Rules, I should think. The Oxford Dict. for Writers and Editors might help, too.

Emma♠

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But for proper explanations, Fowler's Modern English Usage is my favourite.

I must look out for these books in chrity shops. My husband used to swear by something called Hartrampf's Vocabularies, but it fell apart.

There's the Cobuild dictionary which is compiled from examples of usage, so that might be helpful.

As for the poetic and the past--continuous implications, I remembered two more examples: an operatic aria called 'I dreamt I lived in Marble halls' which I know from a Joyce short story, and the contrasting ' I dreamed a dream' by Abba.

Kat, I seem to recall that sentence you quoted. Hope the novels coming on apace.

I have the answer!

I think.

It depends on the tense, whether Past Simple or Past Perfect.

Bear with me.

Past Simple is this:

Last night, I dreamed about butterflies.

i.e. Past Simple = verb+ -ed

You use that when talking about something that was in the past and is now finished - ie the dream about butterflies happened and is gone.

A Past Perfect sentence would be this:

Before dreaming about butterflies, I'd dreamt about bees.

Past Perfect = had + verb + -t

You use Past Perfect when talking about something that happened before the event you are describing from the past - so the dream about butterflies happened in the past, but the dream about bees happened before that.

There are other things as well, but that's the most common usage.

So basically, if you haven't got 'had' in the sentence, you add -ed.

I'm making this sound more complicated than it is.

These are all Past Perfect sentences:

I had already been to Spain (i.e. before going to Italy) - Past Simple would be 'I went to Spain'

I had smelt grass before (i.e. before smelling it this time) - Past Simple would be 'I smelled grass.'

Not sure if this makes sense, but this is the answer.




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Oh, I've just seen that Emma explained it all far more concisely above. Sorry! I was just so excited to give a grammar lesson, I rushed in.

But I don't think the past perfect is relevant here,

I think we are discussing the simple past and the question is whether dreamed and dreamt mean the same, which they do, and when should they be used, which seems to be a matter of choice In other words, no rules apply except personal taste and context.

Or is there something I haven't spotted?

Sheila

Ha ha Thanks Sapph for explaining that - even though it confused me even more! Only joking , it was actually a good way to put it, especially the bit about whether it's got i]had in it or not.

Thanks everyone

Kat