Hi,
Got floored the other week by a comment in my writing group when I talked about joining Intensive Critique and was asked "do I really need all that validation?"

Which sort of struck me as odd on an intellectual level, because, of course, I am a cold-hearted rational being for whom the only purpose for uploading is to get considered feedback to assist me in honing my skills... Hence my willingness to part with hard-earned to pay people like Terry to point out the problems that I can't see for myself.

But...

However much I know I have improved by dint of seeing the problems, I also know how motivated I felt the first time I saw people "getting" the things I was trying to put across and realised I was also doing some things right. Equally, I don't know how readily I'd have done my second flash fiction piece without at least one nice thing said about the first... And I know I usually try to find something good when I critique before I comment on the things I don't like.

And...

To be truthful, it seems you really have to request harsh feedback to get it and (for most people) there is a "good enough" level of writing that allows them to put anything you have done that they wouldn't have down to style rather than poor writing. This is particularly true of social events like writing groups.

So...

Be honest: when you upload, is your primary intention to achieve personal growth of your writing skills or your ego?

Cheers,

Undecided of Dublin

I would agree that one can get hooked on critiques, putting up chapter after chapter because one gets a buzz from having people read it - and getting feedback, like getting corrections on a piece of schoolwork before the A+ at the bottom, shows they've actually read it.
But is there anything wrong with that?

is there anything wrong with that?

Not wrong as such, but you'll admit there is a difference in terms of whether or not it is a high priority for actually getting your WIP MSS to the end!

Well anything that encourages you to get to the end, must be good.

<Added>

tbh, I stop reading after 3 chapters. After that you're simply asking people to like it.

Most people stop _way_ before 3 chapters!

I would be reluctant to upload more than about 1500 words if I wanted to get detailed feedback from anyone...

Well, unfortunately we weren't able to sustain the pace over an entire novel, but in our heyday the intensive critiquing group Calliope over in Novel II must have got up to around twelve chapters, 2000 or so words at a time. Obviously the validation part of it was great and very motivating for all of us to keep going with our WIPs, but for me the actual technical critiques and comments were by far the most valuable thing.

What was important was that we built up a level of trust, so while we were always polite and sensitive, after the first few chapters we tended to cut to the chase a bit more. When doing my rewrites, I keep coming back to these crits, and I've taken all of them on board in one way or another.

It's really made me see the value of writing groups, and I'm now looking for an offline one to complement WW.

Joker

When I first went to a writing group I was very much encouraged to keep going. Not in a 'oh that is genius' sort of way, more a 'you have talent but you've got a lot of fecking work to do.'
However after that first spurt, I was very much looking for active and objective crits. Anything that would make my work better.
I'm certainly not loooking for validation.
I know I can write I just need help focussing on how to writer better.
You have to ask yourself what you're after.
HB x

However after that first spurt, I was very much looking for active and objective crits. Anything that would make my work better. I'm certainly not loooking for validation. I know I can write I just need help focussing on how to writer better.

This is exactly what I would have said before posting this thread!

I think it's true even now. All the same, I still made a point of reading out a FF piece to my group because I knew it was good and wanted to show I can write something a bit different to my WIP...

Ah hypocrisy, the only creed I can truly commit to.

G

Be honest: when you upload, is your primary intention to achieve personal growth of your writing skills or your ego?

I suspect it's a combination for most people. However, talking about 'your ego'/ validation makes wanting to be read sound very negative; realistically though, don't most of us who are aiming to be published do it because we want people to read what we write? Obviously the stuff we post on these sites probably isn't at the required standard yet, it's wip for most of us, but surely posting it - putting it out there and listening to the echoes that come back - is a perfectly legitimate part of the process.

I want to be read - but I need and crave the responses too. Not always - sometimes I just want to bury myself and write but it's great to know there are people you can rely on to take a look.

If it's polished and finished you maybe just want to know if it works - and a comment on an awkward phrase can make all the difference - at draft stage you need to know where the glitches are because when you are so close to it you're living it you can't always see?

makes wanting to be read sound very negative

Perhaps, but remembering that I came into this because of the time

when I talked about joining Intensive Critique and was asked "do I really need all that validation?"

Obviously I want to be read, and obviously I want people to enjoy what I've written, and obviously, when people do enjoy what I've written, I want to know about it!

I think the implication of the comment from the writing group was that the warm-fuzzy of being told you do something well was the motivation rather than the _actually_ doing something well...

It was a bit of a shock to me that anybody could think that was all feedback was about - it certainly put the help I had received up until then into context!

So, no, it's not bad in itself to want to be read and I doubt that even the hardcore crit-junkies would survive for very long if they received an unrelenting stream of "this is illiterate charmless gumph that an advertising exec would be too ashamed to admit to". But I started this thread by questioning my own motivation for uploading as I thought I was much closer to Helen's position until I thought about it.

G

If it's polished and finished you maybe just want to know if it works

Oddly, I think I'm the other way around.

I'm much more sensitive about things I am unsure of because there's always the implication I wouldn't have seen the fix myself even when I think I would. By contrast, when I upload something that I think is polished, it is utterly illuminating (even exciting) to have somebody spot a flaw because it means I am learning something.

G