Giaus, I notice you have not uploaded any extracts of your work on the Site. It might be easier to answer questions such as these if you allow us to see an actual extract.
It is a little difficult answering the question when one is having to make a guestimate as to the problem you are describing.



- NaomiM

Guilty as charged, NoaMim.

Waiting (with much optimism, I like what's happenned so far) to see the fuller results of your thread (if you remember, I started a similar one shortly before leaving a group some months ago and removed old uploads then) but also...

This is a wide ranging generalised issue that requires a lot of context and (apart from one specific paragraph) you need to read several pages more than I would expect people who have not been specifically and personally requested to undertake.

I will not have time to prepare extracts that make sense of it all until I have the time to sit down and concentrate on pure writing. Fortunately, this is in progress!

I've booked a week away with just me and my laptop in a self-catering cottage! Cannot wait. The anticipation is killing me...

Dagnamit.

Second strike...

Still more work to do.

Don't know whether this will help or not, but...

The reason that Russian writers can get away with using so many name variants has to do with their language's fairly well-formalised system of diminutives (for first names) and the common use of patronymics* in place of a person's surname. Such names would not confuse Russian readers, because they would understand, without the need for explanation, that (say) someone called Natalia might sometimes be referred to as Natalie or Natasha (or one of several other variants which I can't remember off the top of my head).


* A patronymic is derived from a person's father's first name, with the addition of -ovich (or -evich) for a man or -ovna (or -evna) for a woman. For example, if a man called Sergei had a son called Mikhail, the latter's patronymic would be Sergeevich (hence, Mikhail Sergeevich Gorbachev).


Alex

Yes, I was reading this thread and thinking that the fundamental problem is that we're not used to thinking in patronymics etc.

one reason why we instinctively say to a toddler 'Give it to Mummy', is because the relative and shifting pronouns of me you, he, etc. are harder to get a grip on. Who is 'granny'? among four generations of female descendants.

In A Secret Alchemy it was absolute murder: earldoms actually changed hands when the original holder was attainted, as well in as normal inheritance, and when you get men being granted titles in right of their heiress wife, even I go weak at the knees... I made a policy decision that I would use as few variants as possible, but even then we ended up with a family tree at the beginning.

You'll never put in the right amount of information both the strap-hanging reader with one eye, and the dedicated nerd. (Though it's probably easier in fantasy, since you don't have the Ricardians breathing down your neck), but if it's important to your society you should stick to it. After all, we all cope with knowing that someone is 'Mr Jones' but also 'James' in other contexts, don't we.

There are various tricks which help, as with the suggestion that you make short forms very like longer ones (and stick rigidly to the rule of only one character with a name beginning with one letter). And yes, when we know them as fully rounded characters its easier to cope with, so don't introduce another name till the first one is well pinned on. You can even get away with one or two really crashing bits of info dump, if you bury them well enough: 'I don't know, I can't imagine James Pringle as the Earl of Bluntshire, he'll always be the feckless heir to Blunt Court to me, and I don't suppose I'll ever stop calling him Lord Mountjoy...'

Or something

Emma

Thanks, I'm getting there now and the names are staying.

I've decided that the problem to tackle next is establishing "otherness".

We aren't used to Russian patronymics, but we tolerate them provided we realise that the scene is Russian... Similarly Emma's feudal titles are accepted in a way they wouldn't be in other genres because it "fits" with the reader's conception. My trouble is that an English culture, isolated for many years, has developed new rules but is still recognisably English. Therefore, readers are applying English cultural rules.

Or, at least, I _think_ that is what is happening...

G

Or, at least, I _think_ that is what is happening...

Certainly. That's what I was fumbling to say.

Here's an idea that I've seen used in a few Niven and Pournelle novels (which tend to have huge casts): a list of dramatis personae at the start of the book. That way, anyone who gets lost among the names (like I often do) can refer back to it to remind themselves who is who.

Alex

To be fair to my critics, I found the need to write a list of dramatis personae at the start of the book for _me_ to be able to keep it together! (Though I'm useless with names in real life also.)

The question is, when I get to the happy stage of submitting it, do you think I should include it or will that just set alarm bells ringing?

Gaius

I'd leave it out for the initial submission - as you say, it could get them worried. You could always put it back in when you send the whole thing.

Emma

(Though I'm useless with names in real life also.)

Join the club

I tend to use a separate list of characters (plus various other aides-memoires) when I'm writing, for exactly the same reason. I also wouldn't consider submitting it initially, as it's not really part of the story even when it ends up in the book. The person who first sees your initial submission needs to be persuaded of the quality of the story and the writing, not of the author's ability to magic up dozens of characters or invent imaginative maps of nonexistent places.

(Actually, for me, the lists are even more important. I have real trouble thinking up names for characters, and the lists are my way of doing some of that ahead of time, so that the names are there when I get to the relevant part of the narrative. Otherwise I'd just get stuck for half a day while I tried to decide what to call this new person I've introduced.)

Alex

My trouble is that an English culture, isolated for many years, has developed new rules but is still recognisably English. Therefore, readers are applying English cultural rules.

Are you familiar with Terry Pratchett? At the beginning of (most of) the books in his discworld series, he writes a short introduction setting the story in context. Sometimes the context isn't strictly necessary to the plot, but he writes it all the same to abolish his readers' preconceptions and open their minds to the 'rules' of his world. I know that he has a very distinctive writing style, and being quite comic (most of the time) it is easy to make this method work, but I don't see any reason for you to not apply a similar system here.

I'd just get stuck for half a day while I tried to decide what to call this new person I've introduced.)

I'm glad that's not just me then! I always get so hung up on character names.

Joolz

I always get so hung up on character names.

Being a software developer in my day job, I've sometimes thought it might be useful to write a piece of software that could generate me a list of candidate names on demand (first name, surname - nothing fancy like titles or other stuff). I'd have to get a database of first names and surnames from somewhere (the former split by male/female type), but I think it could be made to work fairly easily. I've just never had the time to put anything like this together.

Alex

but I think it could be made to work fairly easily.

What? And resist the temptation to complicate it? Don't stop at surnames and first names by gender. You could run a catergorized search by a whole range of variables. Look for names by character attributes, names by place, names by craft, mood, historical reference, multi-syllabic...and the list goes on.

Don't forget cultural preconceptions by region, age and segment.

Does Mabel represent the same values to a DINKY as an Empty-Nester? What about to a Yuppy?

If I'm writing a teen fantasy and use the name Granville, will my audience accept that he is a wizard or assume he is a lowly blacksmith?

G

Ah, that would be a Civil Service level of application - one whose requirements start off gold-plated but open-ended, begin to change immediately work has begun, and which after 10 years of effort still isn't doing what was originally envisaged because the guy who knew what that was has got fed up and quit 5 years ago.

I don't do that kind of software

Alex

<Added>

If I'm writing a teen fantasy and use the name Granville

They'll probably think he's a grocer's delivery boy (Ger-granville!)