Ok, so I just completed the first full draft of my new fantasy novel that I have been writing for most of this year. It was going to be part of a trilogy, but after going on a few forum sights that suggested writing a trilogy is not a good idea for a first novel (that and the other parts of the trilogy are significantly shorter than the first part), I tried to compact all three parts into one book.

The one problem I have is that (after my first attempt at editing) the whole book comes down to 566 pages and around about 200,000 words long. I know there's always room for more editing, but I need to know if this is too long to begin with. What sort of length should I be aiming for in terms of pages and number of words? Any advice appreciated. Thanks.

According to their blogs, Agents do baulk at novels which are 200K plus. If you can get it down to, say, 170K then so much the better.


- NaomiM

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I tried to compact all three parts into one book.

There is nothing wrong with writing a trilogy, just that the first book must also work as a stand alone - this doesn't mean the story has to be wrapped up neatly at the end. There should be a big denoument but it can be left open ended allowing for a sequal or two.
If you look at JKR's The Philosopher's Stone there is the potential for continuing the story - Voldermort is significantly weakened but not dead. But also the story could have stopped there. I would suggest looking at the structure of a few first books of fantasy series and see how other writers have handled it.

There's a school of thought that says that a book must be as long as it needs to be. However, I think Naomi's probably right about there being a possible level of resistance at the 200K mark. I'm finalising a third draft (not fantasy, though) and I've only managed to get it down to 180K at this stage and I fear I may be pushing my luck a bit at that level. I'll find out shortly when I start submitting!

I doubt if agents have any kind of rule as such about length but I'm sure that, when they come across something long, they're going to want to be absolutely certain that a reader's interest is going to be fully held over the entire duration of the book. That's probably the crucial question to have in mind when considering how much editing is needed.

Chris

Speculative fiction is the exception. If you don't believe me, go and have a look in any Waterstones and take in some of the whoppers in there. Many are well over 200,000 words. And not just in single volumes - trilogies, series, ten-book epics.

As the point above states, a book should only be as long as it needs to be. Any work of any length is going to have a hard time if it isn't good enough, but the opposite is also true. Never make the mistake of thinking the guidelines surrounding general fiction apply to to Fantasy fiction because they aren't the same thing and they don't. Agents and publishers in this field are well accustomed to - and if sales and stocks are anything to go by - delighted by a big fat Fantasy epic, as long as it is brilliant.

Building new worlds takes words.

JB

I'd agree that sf/f seems to be happy with much longer novels than other genres. But I suspect that many agents and publishers, contemplating a covering letter which describes a novel as 200,000, would suspect - if only because they've see so many of that length which could with benefit have been cut by 50% - that it's too long in the sense of there being surplus words/plot/characters (as opposed to 'too long' in the sense of an absolute wordcount.)

If you can honestly say that there's not a single word in there which doesn't do at least two jobs in the novel, and not a single word missing, then it needs to be 200,000. But 'needs to be' only applies when you can honestly say that.

A propos trilogies, I think Naomi's right. There's no reason a novel shouldn't be Book One of a trilogy. But a publisher needs to be able to sell it on its own, so you don't want to give the least hint that the book couldn't stand on its own, with its own satisfying ending - even though that ending still gives you the possibilty of springing another self-contained novel off from it. So, just as an agent/editor needs to approach your 200,000 words from a positive confidence that every one of those words will be working hard (which long experience of the slushpile tells them will usually not be the case), they also need to approach your novel from a positive confidence that there'll be nothing about it which is unsatisfactory or unresolved because it's waiting for Book Two. If there's any question about One which you can only answer by saying, 'Read Two,' then it's not there yet. (The exception is the question 'I loved all those characters in One. What will happen to them next? Make other readers - not just you - feel that, and you're onto a winner.)

One thing that stuck me about the Harry Potter series, is JKR left most of the backstory to the later books. In Bk.1 she introduced the main characters and the setting and had the first of Harry's trials with Voldermort, but a lot of 'boring' backstory was left to pad out the later books - left for a point where the readership knew the mc(s) and would be interested to find out what happened before bk.1.

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eg, the first horcrux that harry encounters in The Chamber of Secrets - the reader isn't told anything about horcruxes until Bk.6, The Half Blood Prince and the search with Dumbledore for the rest of them.

I see the points you're trying to put across and they are all good. One other fear when I was writing this book was that while the first book was a good length (it was about 250 pages or so) the other two books were significantly shorter than the first (in the sense they'd probably be more short stories than novels) so I was seeing if I could put them all in one book.

I'm going through and editing it now as we speak, so far I've managed to cut out a load of words which were not important (or try to use the least amount of words to describe something or someone) but I've kinda hit a brick wall. There is one scene I could cut out completely and it would decimate the word count--but it would also mean needing to re-write another scene entirely. ARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!! WHY CAN'T WRITING BE EASY?????!!!!!!!!!

(takes a breath)

Sorry about that. Calm now....

On a serious note, does anyone know of anyone (possibly on this sight) that can give editing advice? Maybe if I get another person to read it other than my family or friends then I know I can get some good advice of what to cut out and what to leave in.

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Oh, there's one other thing I forgot to mention about this novel. As I mentioned, it was part of a trilogy--but one of the underlining themes of the story is based around an ancient "Doom" prophercy that was to happen to the world (as a form of suspense to lead up to the main baddie). It was split into three pieces or verses, one at the beginning of each part. As I was trying to do this as part of one novel, I now thought I could use each of the three verses to "separate" each section of the story, so that the reader isn't bombarded too much. Would that help you think?

On a serious note, does anyone know of anyone (possibly on this sight) that can give editing advice? Maybe if I get another person to read it other than my family or friends then I know I can get some good advice of what to cut out and what to leave in.

If you fancy doing a chapter by chapter (or, preferably, scene by scene) breakdown/outline, you can upload it on the Synopsis & Outline group and we'll take a look at it. It can help in justifying each chapter (or scene) in the novel, to make sure each are moving the plot on and developing the characters. But it's not for the faint hearted.


- NaomiM

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I mean it's a lot of work, not that we'll give you a hard time, or anything, lol.

Ok, managed to do a bit of editing to the novel. Got it down to 496 pages and around about 190,000 words (which is still too long, but better than it was before). The only way round I think I can edit it more is to go through each sentence and to try and use the least amount of words possible.

There is one part of the chapter I could take out completely, as it probably delays getting to the main action of the novel. However, it cuts out a huge part of what I think is important back story for the heroine and if I got rid of it I don't know anywhere else in the novel I could put it.

Which should I go for? Reduction of words at the cost of losing plot, or keeping the word count and keeping to the story.

Maybe I could just upload that one chapter and let others tell me what I should do?

It depends what sort of writer you are. If your prose style is naturally verbose, then cutting words from each sentence is the way to go - I know sometimes I've critted pieces and said it's good but there's too much of it, you can afford to cut 60%. But if the prose flows naturally, then simply reducing words can make it bitty.
Personally I'd cut out all the backstory. In the opening chapters the reader will read on to find out the answers. If you start feeding in the answers too soon - especially in the form of backstory, eg, to justify the MC's motivations - you may risk killing off any form of suspense and any hooks, that would otherwise encourage the reader to read on.



- NaomiM

I think cutting comes in two types - cutting, which is taking out chunks, and filetting, which is taking out a word here, a sentence there. As Naomi says, if you tend to over-write as part of your process, then you may find that filetting - spotting where three words are doing the job of one or (incredibly common) you're actually saying things more than once - does the job. If it's more that you've temporarily lost your feel for how much information to put in - about backstory, journey details, rooms, clothes, whatever - then cutting out chunks may be more what's needed.

One trick - might be a bit much for a whole novel, but it's very instructive - is to make another copy of the file and cut that absolutely ruthlessly for, as you say, the absolute fewest words possible. Then put it all away for a bit, while the wounds heal over. Then use Word to compare the two files, and just work your way through, accepting and rejecting each of the changes it flags up. I guarantee you'll learn a lot.

My experience is that writers almost always think readers need more fully-formed backstory than readers actually do. For us it's part of working out the character, so it's very understandable that it goes in. But, actually, as long as the character has been properly formed by the back-story that's in your head, then it's surprising how much is just implicit in their frontstory (if that isn't a term, it ought to be) for readers to pick up. Or you find you've sneajed it in quite naturally as it would in real life - think about how you learnt your friends and colleagues backstories - and doesn't need to be spelt out.

Emma

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I think I might have filletted one L too many a couple of times...

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Oops! 'sneajed' isn't a term either (I meant 'sneaked' but it's rather a nice word...

My experience is that writers almost always think readers need more fully-formed backstory than readers actually do.

Very true. The main story is from the stage in the character's life you choose to kick off from. It can be very disruptive to stall the plot and tell the reader aspects of their earlier life. As JK Rowling said, she has full biographies for all her characters - even back to grandparents in some cases - info which is never mentioned in any of the books.

Hi
I also think the rule about length not applying to fantasy can be extended to trilogies. In other genres, trilogies are not encouraged for first time writers but in Fantasy this is considered the norm.
Sheila

That's good advice there. To be fair though, the backstory I put in that scene isn't a COMPLETE backstory (Ie, it doesn't go into how the heroine full life) just how she became famous across the land. Most of her story doesn't come in till a bit later (whereby I go into the more human aspects of her character). I think I can edit it a huge amount though. I'll be ruthless with it (as you suggested) and see where that gives me.

I hate editing! Why I can't I be one of the those writers that gets it right in one go? If... any such writers exist. lol

Why I can't I be one of the those writers that gets it right in one go? If... any such writers exist. lol

LoL! I don't think they do. Or, at least, if they do, it's because they never move on from a single page till it's perfect, in which case it takes them a month to write each page. Or, they're like Mozart, for whom most of the thinking went on before he put pen to paper, so the MS look incredibly clean and finished. Didn't mean it just descended from on high, though. The rest of us are Beethovens, and do our thinking on paper...

Emma