In the critique post, someone mentioned correcting grammar incorrectly. So, how about a sort of grammar-thought-for-the-day section, where people could explain grammar mistakes they regularly see. Then we can collectively move forward. (Sorry if that sounds pretentious, but I'm sure you get my drift)
Elspeth

Oh yes!

I have a real problem with punctuation when dialogue is interrupted by some action. I thought I had it sussed for ages but now I’m confused again…

Dee
x

Dee, I know what you mean - I'm the same on that one! I've started another thread on the subject. Let me know if you have other ideas
Elspeth

I hate the incorrect use of, eg., 'John and I'; "She sent it to John and I", when it should be 'John and me'.

I am a bit pedantic when it comes to grammar, I'm afraid.

joanie

I had a tip about this:

If you take out the other person, does the sentence still read correctly. So if you take out, in this example, ‘John and’ you’re left with ‘She sent it to I’ or ‘She sent it to me’

The correct version is obvious.

It’s good to get these things right but remember when you’re writing dialogue – not everyone talks in perfect grammar all the time.

Dee

One of my favourites.

You can't use a semi-colon as a break unless the preceeding line forms a proper sentence in its own right.

Also, I have an easy way to remember the correct application of 'less' & 'fewer'

Jam and marbles.

Less Jam, Fewer marbles.

Swapped over it doesn't make sense.

Darryl

Dee, I totally agree - dialogue is a different matter!

joanie

What a fascinating thread. Grammar is 'there' for a purpose; however I agree that dialogue echoes how people communicate and, in many cases. the spoken word is very different from the written form.

This should not be taken as meaning that the spoken work should not, in itself, be as grammatically accurate as it can be, but it should still retain that 'something' that makes it more believable and even more acceptable to the reader. A good example of this is when a writer pens dialogue in the strict language of 'the streetwise' and includes lots of 'fuck', 'shit' and so on. Sure, this is the language that one hears but
if the writer is experienced, he/she will know that this language is being translated from spoken to written, where the repetition of certain words can get in the way of the work.

After all, if one were to transpose what is spoken by the average person, the work would be full of 'Ers', 'Hums' 'Wells', 'Yeahs' and so on.

Len

Less and fewer.
If your subject is numerically quantifiable, the word should be fewer. If it is not numerically quantifiable, then less.

A smaller quantity of jam (which cannot be counted, except for the calories) is less (jam).

A smaller quantity (ie number) of marbles, would be fewer.

This is worth knowing for those of us who have lost marbles over the years.

By the way, Lynne Truss's 'Eats shoots and leaves' is pretty good on common grammatical errors.

Best
Sion

Len

I love realism in creatity, maybe that's a paradox but I think you know what I mean. There's one thing which has always riled me in so-called realist books and films, and that is that no-one ever coughs, or farts for the sake of it. It only ever happens if it has a certain meaning to it, but it happens in real life all the time.

And, no-one ever says 'pardon?' in the dialogue unless it's to make a point. I speak to loads of people and don't understand what they said or a plane flies past or I'm thinking of Michael Owen eeking out his life on the Real Madrid bench.Why can't you reflect life,literally, in creativity?

It seems like you take offence to the over-usage of expletives and the 'experienced writer' shouldn't have to sink to those depths. I think it's got a place in literature and one shouldn't harness oneself to rigid guidelines.

I love the film (Good lord I'm going on a bit!) 'Do The Right Thing' by Spike Lee.The film has literally 100s and 100s of 'bad words' in it, but it is a totally true reflection of the New York it is set in, and in my op it is cracker. (No fartin' though)

Anyway I said my bit and I wish you peace.

Dave

I have a real problem with punctuation, as some of you are already aware.

Does anyone know of a computer programme that works similar to spell check that can help me with this?

I've tried reading books, my shelves are full of grammer and punctuation books - I just can't get it for some sad reason, any help or ideas greatly appreciated.

Claire

Dave,

You have either completely misunderstood my comments or I have failed to comment clearly. If it is the latter then I apologize.

I am certainly not offended by the use of expletives - quite the opposite - for these can be the most expressive of language.

My point is that one should take care when one uses these and, generally speaking, a few is always far more readable and certainly more effective than when these are spread around like confetti.

And WHO is suggesting that one harnesses oneself to rigid guidelines? This is a discussion on Grammar; if you feel that Grammar imposes these 'rigid Guidelines' then this is akin to playing football but paying no heed to the rules of the game.

An 'overuse' of expletive may work in a film
because this is spoken language - the same as it 'works' in our everyday lives. However in reading, these - like the 'ums and ars, the 'y'knows' the 'Yers' and so on - can and do get in the way, therefore writers (experienced or not) will include these at his or her peril.

Len

Stuff like "he hit the woman with the bag" where it's not clear if the woman had the bag or he hit her with a bag. I'm sure there's a term for this, you'd think I'd know being an English teacher

Isn’t that called a dangling modifier? As in:

rugby is played by men with funny-shaped balls or
she played the piano with Queen-Anne legs

Dee
x

Excellent, Dee - a dangling modifier - you made that up!

Alex, I'm a TEFL teacher too but rarely teach grammar just the basic tenses - over and over and over again.

Elspeth