Good morning.

Last week I was advised that my manuscript was almost ready to go, except for its narrative structure which was found to be too jumpy. I have been asked to go back through it and make sure none of my scenes are shorter than two pages and are maintained within one point of view. The jumping about, though not obvious initially, will break the flow for the reader - esp. important I think, as this ms is for 10+ readers.

Somehow I feel like I have been a goose, because surely this is fairly obvious and yet I've missed it completely.

I have decided to dissect a novel of the same length/genre with paper clips and post-it notes to see how the author has broken up her book, but I was wondering how others keep their novels balanced.

Is it something you are aware of as you write, or do you go back at the end and bang it into shape? Is it a ridgid formula? I have read the thread on chapter length which was really helpful too, but are people more specific than that?

I'd be so grateful for any tips as it all feels a bit insurmountable at the moment.

This is a manuscript which was passed by my reader through to the head of a literary consultancy who, though extremely tough, was optimistic of a good end result, so I can't give up now. (head on desk, weeping...)

Many thanks in advance and hope the above makes sense, best wishes.

Is it jumping about because you are changing the pov within the scene? Terry Pratchett is very good at juggling povs - using several through the course of a book, and having several story threads running - almost as if he's written 3 or 4 books, with several groups of characters, and then spliced them together following a single time line. It does jump about, but because each scene is kept short you don't have time to forget what each group of characters are doing.

Personally I go through the first draft and map the time line so characters are where they are supposed to be at any given time, and if there is a jump of a few weeks or months between chapters I add a line or two to let the reader know.

- NaomiM

I struggle with narrative structure too. I tend to write each character's story separately in his/her POV and then merge according to the plot. But I do move scenes around a lot when I am editing.

What I have found useful is heading up each scene with a 'Heading' in Word and then putting the whole file into Outline format which gives you just the headings. So you can see at a glance the order of the scenes.

SG

So you can see at a glance the order of the scenes.

Except that I do it by hand, I've often done something similar when I've got in a muddle, with retrospective maps of what's told when, whose PoV it's told in, who knows about it and who doesn't, and so on.

But 'jumpiness' can be more in how it's done than what you're doing. Do you just jump straight into the other PoV and place, or do you take the reader with you and move towards it by stages?

If the jump-cut's sudden, I agree, you want a reasonable chunk in that place and PoV, or the reader gets carsick.

It's very possible (though might give the book a different flavour) to slide progressively from one to the other, via something neutral, and that would eliminate the jumpiness. I'm sure there was a thread about it somewhere, because I remember whistling up an fairly dire example but I've had a quick look and can't find it. I'll post the link if I do.

Emma

Re-organising or restructuring can be a mind-numbing business, whatever the reasons are that require it to be carried out. I've found that trying to do it just by looking at the text itself risks rapid mental breakdown. Here's a suggestion for the particular points that you've mentioned.

You could create a table (in Word or Excel or just on a sheet of ruled paper) with columns for chapter, point of view and description of content of scene. Do a read through and for each scene enter a row/line with the chapter number, whose POV it's written from and a one-sentence summary of the event or scene-content. If there are multiple POV's within one scene, do one entry for each POV section of the scene. It may seem mechanical but it will first of all identify all the scenes and POV issues. Then, once you see them all laid out simply, it becomes much easier to see (a) which POV bits need to be altered, (b) which scenes could potentially appear in a different order and (c) which scenes could be dispensed with or amalgamated. If they are very short scenes, perhaps they could simply be condensed into a transitions between one scene and another rather than artificially expanded. It's a bit of a formal approach but it makes the whole thing manageable.

There are those who can plan stuff out like this in advance of writing the book but, for me like most, the restructuring process is probably inevitable.

Good luck with it. Sounds like you've reached a good situation.

Chris

Dear Naomi, Scotgal, Emma and Chris2,

Thank you so so much for you help. I now have a plan of action! I think if I use chris and scotgals wasys of looking at the bigger picture, I'll be able to see the problems. Apparently the characterisation is fine, so as chris said it may well be a case of condensing the points of view I have already, but I am also aware of what Emma mentioned about taking the reader with you, rather than jumping straight in and I think I may not have done that as well as I could in certain areas.
There are parts where the mc could be thinking which could introduce a bit of back story and place her more in space and time for the reader. I have done this in some parts but not in others and I think the person who read the ms wants more of this, I suppose because it just makes it make more sense - or an easier read.
I am so grateful though for your comments - thank you. I think (i Hope) once I start to break it down I will be able to see where these points are. I just needed a way to bring it all under control, which you've all given me.
Thank you again,have a good weekend, all the best.

This thread on Chapter Length has turned into a discussion of scenes as a unit of the novel, which is relevant to structure as a whole too:

http://www.writewords.org.uk/forum/65_248836.asp?spage=2

Emma

Hi Emma

Thank you so much for your message. The chapter length thread is brilliant and have printed it off - once I've divided the book up, I thought I'd use the tips to put it all back together again.
I think I was so fed up with this ms that I rushed at the end and thought that as the timeline was in place and each chapter ended in a cliffhanger, it was ok. But obviously not.
I'm expecting to find the ms does cause a bit of carsickness along the way, but once I've got the pov's under control and then following all the advice I've been given hopefully it will start to flow. If I could just get one chapter to do that, then I would understand what I'm supposed to be doing and hopefully replicate it with the others. I expect the first chapters will be a bit wobbly - but i've read the ms often as a whole and I am sure I will be able to see the difference once I get into the swing of it. (please).
It's not easy this writing, is it?
Thanks again for your help.
All the best.

Reading this thread has just about scared me to death! I'm writing a novel for children maybe 10+. I'm just writing, following instincts, and not even thinking of things like narrative structure - which until now I had never heard of! I do hope it's possible to be a good writer without knowing too much about the technical side of writing. I have often felt that if I'm 'boxed-in' by rules, and 'how to do it information' it completely stymies my natural flow. I'll probably regret not learning more when a publisher tells me to restructure everything. That's if it gets that far! In the meantime I shall give a lot of thought to what I've learned in this thread.

Franci
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Hi Franci, I wouldn't worry so much - I think if they were asked, the published writers would probably say they do this kind of re-structuring (if needed) after they've written the book anyway. It's just part of my learning how to write a book, I'm sure not everyone is the same and like you, if I thought I had to adhere to some plan whilst writing, I wouldn't be able to do it, but at the editing stage discipline is needed, which is where I am at - and very short of discipline at the best of times! I agree it looks scary, but now I've started doing it, it's not nearly as bad as I thought because of the advice I've recieved here. All the best with your writing.

Thanks for that funnyV

I shall just keep writing and hope too much change isn't required later on. This thread has been so helpful -as have many others on this site, and made me aware of so many things within the writing world that I never knew existed. Good luck with your novel.

Franci
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Oh, I completely agree with the title of your thread!

I find that it is so, so, so hard to 'see' your book as you read it yourself because you can't get any distance from it. What might seem jumpy or abrubt to someone else can read fine to you because you are so overly-familiar with it.

Personally, I rely on friends (they have to be very very honest friends) to make notes as they read it; sometimes rapid scenes can be fine if that's what's required but some sections can jar if they are reading it for the first time.

So I recommend asking people for their honest opinions as they read it. it is even better if you can get someone from your target audience.

It can be difficult to take this sort of constructive criticism from friends though!

Hi Jenzarina
Sorry to reply late to this. I'm going to do exactly that and get a child to read it for me before it gets sent back for approval. Actually, using chris2's chart idea has made it so much more manageable I no longer start to hyperventilate when I sit down at the computer - I can see what needs attention and I've been told what to do, so for me it's just a case of getting on with it. The fear of doing it is always worse than the actual doing it! (I find). Hope your writing is going well.

As an owner of a Literary Consultancy http://www.bubblecow.co.uk I would suggest you go back to them and ask them to explain what they think is wrong, ask them to give you solid examples and suggestions in how you can improve matters.
The approach of some LC’s very frustrating, As a writer myself it is of no help to receive a general comments - you need something tangible. When we are working with writers we provide line-by-line edits as standard. This is not a gimmick it is the only way to give a writer what they need. If you are still stuck then email me at gary@bubblecow.co.uk and I will see what I can do about a free read though to try and get you out of the hole.
Gary at http://www.bubblecow.co.uk

Hi Bubblecow
Thank you so much for your kind offer of help, but the readers at the LC I have used have been brilliant and I have been told exactly what I need to do (with examples) - I posted here because I know the more experienced writers have great (tried and tested) ways of sorting out various issues and I'm always up for trying to pick their brains!
You are very kind though, I do appreciate it and best of luck with your own work.