My chapters are made up of one or two scenes max. Very short. Don't worry about this at all since reading one prolific WF writer whose books have over one hundred short chapters - i think it really works for very commerical fiction.

However, i don't do this consciously and i think the most important thing about any chapter, regardless of length, is its structure, that it has a purpose and ends making the reader want to read on.

x

I tend to write shorter chapters, but am trying to beef them up of late as I can see how they might be perceived as patchy. Also, I've generally noticed in many published novels that substantial chapters appear to be the order of the day.

If I'm reading I don't care how long the chapters are. The story, if it's good enough will keep me reading. When writing it seems my chapters tend to work out to around about 5000 words. To show my ignorance I'm not sure what writers mean by 'scenes' exactly. Can someone tell me! I'm assuming it's when the story switches from one 'place' to another maybe?

Franci
x

A good explnation of 'scenes' can be found in Sol Stein's Solutions for Novelists, which is excellent for those at the editing stage of their novel.
The scene is not necessarily bounded by location, it partly depends on the pace, and the comings and goings of various characters. eg, Your chapter might start with your mc and her husband going to a party, so first scene might be the pair of them chatting with the host in the kitchen; the next scene is the mc bumping into an old boyfriend coming out of the loo and a period of the two of them flirting; a 3rd scene is a tension filled trio of mc, husband and boyfriend in the lounge before the mc leaves with one or other at the end of the chapter - or the final scene could be split between chapters, the chapter ending as the mc tries to choose between old boyfriend and husband.
Anyway, I'm sure others can give you better examples than that, but it's certainly worth checking out Stein's book.


- NaomiM

Must buy those Sol Stein books...

I think of a 'scene' as a unit of change - change being the chief motor of narrative drive - and the book as being built up of a series of those units. Usually in my work it'll be an encounter between two people, but it might be just the MC doing something on their own, or an external event which the characters are involved in. But either way, all the actions and interactions (considering speech as an action) build up to that moment of change, when something significant about the character's situation/thought/nature/knowledge shifts. The rest of the scene is about the result of that shift (do they realise? do others? what happens because of it?) and also covertly setting up the next scene/change, so it's convincing when the narrative starts to build up to that.

Of course there are things in between these big moments, but one of the most common things wrong with manuscripts I do reports on is that there's too much in between which moves the characters around their ordinary lives but doesn't actually contribute to climb up to a change or the run down from it, and therefore doesn't actually do anything to help the narrative drive. The Narrative structure thread here:

http://www.writewords.org.uk/forum/65_250192.asp

gets talking about jump-cuts versus taking the reader with you, which might illuminate this a bit.

Emma

Thanks Emma and Naomi

I think I sort of understood what was meant by a scene, but am unused to what you might call writing jargon. (Been living in the woods too long!). Emma described very well how I assumed a scene would be when she said:

But either way, all the actions and interactions (considering speech as an action) build up to that moment of change, when something significant about the character's situation/thought/nature/knowledge shifts.

I had never heard of Sol Stein, but will certainly consider acquiring a book or two.

Emma, your comment:
...one of the most common things wrong with manuscripts I do reports on is that there's too much in between which moves the characters around their ordinary lives but doesn't actually contribute to climb up to a change or the run down from it, and therefore doesn't actually do anything to help the narrative drive.

Yep! I understand that to be the sort of book I reluctantly give up on!

Thanks agian
Franci
x

Thanks for this everyone - such a useful thread, I've just printed it off.

Just to talk about scenes - I was taught a scene has a build up to a point of tension, a point of tension and a descent from a point of tension, so it's always moving forward.

Hope all your writing is going well.

<Added>

PS Sorry, just repeated Emma, really.