As one wanting to learn, I am troubled. The whole 'killing your darlings', 'succinct' thing is bothering me.

This is not the correct area for crit, but I can justify the post.

My entire first chapter is irrelevant to the plot, save for she's separated from her husband. The nuclear destruction of the earth has been dismissed as a tired old trick.

The first paragraph follows the last paragraph. I am unwilling to provide you with a conclusion, you have ended up where you started. Ironically you are told of this by the character's last statement in the first paragraph. 'How did it come to this?'

The chapter introduces the film 'Nuclear Deterrent II', an almost private send up of Hollywood. (Explained later, but logically it can't exist. Hopefully the ridiculous is emphasised by the mention of 'Icelandic Terrorists'. I've tried to demonstrate; action, thought, contrast, sensitivity, drama, SOH, etc all really quickly.

I seem to be getting the message from these boards, this chapter should be deleted. But I suppose the only relevant issue is, would the reader, read on.

If you've time, tell me what you think.

http://michaelscott.weebly.com/chapter-one.html

Hi

I've had a look at the chapter on the page you linked too, and to be honest, I can't make head nor tail of it. I also find your post fairly difficult to understand, so I may not be your idea reader - I like a spare and straightforward style, and from what you're saying here and in other posts, you like to overwrite a little and be very allusive in order to add layers of meaning to go over the reader's head?

To me, the extract I read seemed very over written - gramatically difficult, overloaded with asides and adjectives. This may be a style that others enjoy, but for me it obscured the meaning.

The only response I feel I can make to what I think your initial question was, is that not every line or paragraph or page in a book has to be about the plot - some of them can be valuable in other ways - for setting the scene, for tone, for character or background. I'd say that I like every paragraph in my writing to have two or three purposes (description + theme + humour=tone) for eg, but that is just me.

I hope you get some more useful responses soon, and that I haven't offended you.

LB

Offended? Not in the least. I agree on the overwritten observation. I'm on bit of an anti-succint mission at the moment. I've been looking at stuff from other non-published authors and I'm finding it a little bit thin.

I'm glad - and I hope you find what you're looking for.

Do you have any examples of not-thin authors you have enjoyed, that you are using as influences or models? I know from your other posts it is very important to you to be original (as it is to us all) so perhaps that would be a difficult question for you to answer. For me, I admire the spareness of early McEwan, Ishiguro, Bukowski and Ali Smith.

Perhaps if you could give a hint as to what kind of rough family you think your writing fits into, it would be easier for me (and maybe others) to respond?

Good luck!

I quite easily made head or tail of it... I didn't think it was that hard too understand and it seemed pretty clear and lucid in style.

What a question! I think maybe it's a bit of a homeless orphan,it's done now. I've learned. I just don't like my 'improvements'. I think I've tried to do a bit of a an adult's Famous Five. Five/Six protagonists, one of which you can identify with. Each character is going to or coming from their opposite. Prostitute to Soccer Mom, Lawyer to Gangster etc. The place where they all meet up in the middle and how they influence and steer each other's lives is the bulk of the work.

It ended up overcomplex with too many cultures and far too much local dialogue where one character must explain things to another for the reader's benefit.

I've no idea if you the reader understands a horse changing it's legs. Or what type of car the lord's chariot is.

Afraid I stalled on whether 'the young student' was the he or the she in the following sentence. And then on who Morgan is.

Allusiveness is one thing, and of course part of the game is readers putting things together, but I think there's a limit to how many ambiguities any reader can (or is prepared to) hold in their head at once, while they wait for each to make sense. If you're asking that much of a reader, as the writer I think you need to track very precisely what information the reader will need, and how and why and when you supply which bits of it. And you need to be ruthless with what is necessary to the rest of the book: in the first chapter readers are working incredibly hard to try to put the pieces together - to understand that world - and will not forgive a book if it turns out that some (much?) of that hard work was pointless.

Which isn't to say that you can't write lavishly, only that even in lavish writing every word needs to be earning its keep: to be contributing to the whole. So does every sentence, speech, character, action, scene. In fact, I think that it's even more necessary of lavish writing: you'll get away with the odd bit that isn't necessary in a sparely-told story, but swathes of richly-written but pointless, non-contributing stuff will overwhelm the reader and make them give up.

Emma

First paragraph follows the final paragraph. Other than that I am trying to show a lot. A lot of information can be gleaned from the imagery. And I really tried to set mood and contrast, probably resulting in the overwriting. I'm not well educated, from what you people tell me. I make adjustments.

i.e. The existence and throwing of the teddy bear was introduced purely as a cinematic comedy moment. I can't allow an object without due justification.

Teddy bear, Valentines Day, reinforces her husband's attitude toward her.

Is she really in a temper? is anybody? Of the three objects, only one will not smash her mother's television screen.

From crit, I'm guessing I leave too much stuff out there for too long. I also realise I've bitten off more than I can chew. In my defence, I've several big characters to build and make credible.

The biggest critism I have received is the feeling that chapters 9 and 10

I can see the 'show', Michael, but technically, there are some basic fixes you could make to the prose style which would make it a smoother read.
eg, in the opening lines you have:
Morgan concluded.
she offered.
cursed Morgan.

I would suggest simply changing it to 'said Morgan', 'she said'.

There is also a certain amount of over description of actions, eg:

her hand rose to cover her mouth. It wasn't a gasp that emanated from her slightly parted lips, quite the reverse. Her sharp intake of breath caused the gasping sound.
....Helen raised her hand to her face, in that moment she held her breath, waiting for the inevitable blast.

Too much description on the gasp which is isn't a gasp because it's a sharp intake of breath, so simply say it's a sharp intake of breath. And you have her raising her hand to her mouth again at the bottom of the paragraph, when she hasn't dropped it from the first mention at the beginning of the paragraph.
You have said before that you are thinking of it cinematically, in which case it may help to think like a 'continuity girl' and double check the actions follow in sync.


- NaomiM

Ms Naomi, why, what a sweet name you have? Betcha real purdy too!

I've looked into your findings, and in respect of what's right and proper I have subsequently made appropriate and respectful adjustments.

Ta 4 ya input luv!