If she was my character, I'd have her kill those ugly sisters (who in my tale, would be more beautiful than she is, but rich and stupid), turn them into cinders in a smoker, and turn the charcoal into diamond slippers she dances in every night (alone).

None of which is probably technically possible, but hey, it is fiction.

Yes, she's about as (annoyingly) passive as it gets, Helen.

Well what about Sleeping Beauty? Spends most of the tale in bed.
I think such fairy tales say a lot about attitudes to women when they first became popular.

I think such fairy tales say a lot about attitudes to women when they first became popular.

Or rather, when they were written down in the later 17th century and then all over again when they became fodder for children in the 19th century - the Grimms progressively cosy-fied their versions as they found their market changing.

This: http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=3848657

is the classic study. Highly, highly recommended, even if, like me, you can never remember what chthonic means...

Emma

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Also:

http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=5239244

for the Freudian view (pricking your finger and bleeding, anyone?)

and this:

http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=5310195

for the most glorious re-take of them by a truly great writer.

I suppose sleeping beauty could be a ambition driven tale if it goes from the point of view of the prince, who wants the beauty, and is determined enough to cut through a wall of thorns surrounding a castle to get her.

And cinderella's story could be re-written for better plot from the point of view of the fairy godmother, who hates the wicked step mother so much she'll do anything (including transform cinderella from serving maid to the belle of the ball) in order to piss her off.

The female characters are still nothing more than story objects though, aren't they? Puppets to the inferno of the 'plot' - such as it is, and not one character trait between them except good looks.

I wonder why, given their passivity (to get back to the point of this thread) the stories are held up as archetypes of what plot is all about. Maybe I've been worried over nothing - my main character is passive, but only temporarily, and there is a good reason for it.

Yes but, yes but. They aren't really novels, are they? To write a whole novel about Cinderella you might have to inject some serious character, surely. Or else a helluva a lot of "the five senses".

Cinders - slap
Sleeping Beauty - slap
Even the Little Mermaid glady gave up her fecking voice to get her man!!!
No wonder my daughter has a fondness for Tom Sawyer and Huck and Alex Rider and Bathsheba.
HB x

That's true - not novels, but then lots of the examples given in 'The Seven Plots' aren't novels either, are they? I'm sure (though I will have to get it to check) the author of that work makes a lot of use of fairy tales to illustrate his ideas about plot.

Is plot in the sense that it requires a character motivated by an ambition, some kind of confict, and a resolution to that conflict, exclusive to novels? Could we have any kind of story at all without a character who is motivated by something? I can't see what these passive female fairy tale characters are motivated by myself, although as Emma says, there have been many versions over the years.

This is all making me feel much more certain that it is fine for my main character to be motivated by a wish to be invisible and separate from the world, faces conflict by finding that impossible, and resolves it by realising that even when there isn't anything you can do but stand by and watch, sometimes it is worth doing something daft just for the sake of doing something.

I think that's what it's about, anyway.

There's plenty of plot in the little mermaid though, isn't there? She wants the man, can't have him because she's a fish, makes a sacrifice to get him, and faces lots of other obstacles before the conflict between what she wants and the forces stopping her having it is resolved.

You might not think much of the moral, but it is certainly more plotted in the sense that I can understand than the other slappable examples we've been discussing - she is a motivated, active character.

Yes, the little mermaid is quite exciting as a tale but as a character Ariael (sp?) is too passive for my liking - she sees her man and gives up her voice and any ability to walk without pain just to be near him.
She lures him in with her ( silent ) charms. Let's not get into why men like this story so much.
Then when he fancies someone else she turns into a wave without a bloody fight.
There's plenty of conflict but our girl just never seems to get on top of it.
HB x

Well The Little Mermaid isn't a fairy tale, is it, it's made up by Andersen.

But when you look hard (or read Marina Warner) you realise that all those passive heroines are a Victorian take on it. What about Gretel, rescuing her brother and roasting the witch? Or Sheherezade in the Thousand and One Nights (okay, not a fairy tale either), keeping her man rapt by telling stories till he falls in love with her. Not to mention all those powerful witches and sorceresses and fairy godmothers...

P&P is a Cinderella story, surely, but where both prince and princess have to do a lot of learning and understanding before she can move into the palace...

Emma

I remember hearing a Disney scriptwriter saying that it was easy to make a good modern story out of Belle in Beauty and the Beast, because she's pretty active, whereas the girl in Aladdin was much harder to make appealling to modern tastes.

Emma

I've always had a sneaking fondness for Goldilocks - she breaks into the bears' house, tampers with their possessions, eats their porridge & sleeps in their beds & as far as I recall all of this is done for no reason at all. She's just having a laugh. There's a kind of existential absurdity to it.

Some say the moral of the story is that home & privacy should be respected, but I prefer to look at it the other way about - that the bears are being menaced by forces of chaos (personified by Goldilocks) as punishment for living such a thoroughly dull and ordered existence...

You lot are all crazy. You need help. EVERYBODY knows all them 'fairy tales' are just synopeses for porn, smut and modern day cautionary tales.

Goldilocks and the Three Bears! - Purleaze!

Sleeping Beauty? - Yeah right, you've had a good night out, you scaled the walls. Guess what? The b*tch is passed out drunk! Do you take the money or what?

Cinderella, yeah right! she left a 'slipper' - duh! The man was getting some from the ugly sisters.. She wasn't 'avin it, so she left her panties under the bed, he's busted, a shotgun wedding ensued.

Jack and Jill? Do you think I'm stupid, wells, streams? Water is affected by gravity! Unless they was getting Avion, the water was DOWN the hill.

The Grand Old Duke of York - he probably started the AIDS epidemiic.

Hansel & Gretel and him putting out a bone to be felt - nuff said.

Jack and the Beanstalk - A cautionary tale about Viagra - Them beans was pills, you know it, I know it. Giant, yeah we all know what you meant.

Don't get me started on the Pied Piper of Hamlin.

Robin Hood and his band of Merry Men? Makes you wonder why there's more single women in Nottingham than any other town.

Mary had a little Lamb, I don't even want to know about it. I give £4 a month to the RSPCA.


If this was a serious thread, shame, I apologise.

NB. The whole 'Virgin Mary' thing, I'm not really feeling it.







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I apologise for the above post. I went for a pee and one of my characters did the deed. I have since killed him off, it will never happen again, sorry.

Lol RJH!

Actually, wasn't the MC in Southey's original an old lady? Same principles apply, of course.

Nik

As far as the wallowing goes, LB, my last 2 MCs have done this - at the time i liked to see it as 'insightful introspection' and the agents/report writers who read the whole of those 2 books HATED my MCs - i think the words 'kill' or 'strangle' might have been used on their part...

Ahem.

Do you have people who could read the whole book for you? Is it written yet? I think the only answer is to find readers and make sure they are totally honest with you. Do you still upload here?

x