I think we probably agree, somewhere, the Da Vinci Code, with the clues, the competition, the movie and all these factors driving it to be - is it 19th best selling book of all time. Did you actually like it though?

Oh dear, you're really opening a can of worms now! Dan Brown debates usually end in chaos, but I'm game. So, er (almost hiding behind the sofa on this one) YES, I did like it. I even bought the expensive glossy version with all the photographs in. People really tear it apart for all kinds of reasons, but I was lucky enough to read it before I heard any of the hype - I was handed a copy and told, "read this, see what you make of it." The first 100 pages rolled along and I fell lock stock and barrel for that trick of short, alternating chapters (changing from one character to the other) with each one ending in a cliff hanger, so you had to read through the next chapter (being delivered with a new cliffhanger), to find out how the first turns out. And on and on.

I thought Angels and Demons was rubbish, mind, but I like the other two.

Where do you stand on Dan Brown?

The prosecution offers no evidence! - I haven't read it.

I would certainly recommend Deception Point or Digital Fortress if you like that kind of book. The Da Vinci Code is very good, but falls a little short of the mark in its closing chapters.

Davinci Code
Deception Point
Digital Fortress
Dan Brown
Angels and Demons

I'm scared.... I have to go now, change my pen name and title.

<Added>

What do you think about writing a prologue to enable first / third switching?

I bet he feels stupid for not calling that first Demons and Angels instead.

What do you think about writing a prologue to enable first / third switching?

I guess I didn't 'add' in time. The message I get is that switchinng POV is frowned up, but couldn't I set it up inn a prologue.

Try reading James Patterson, he does it all the time in his Maximum Ride series (teen). He uses prologues too. I think switching can work fine so long as it's consistent changes throughout the novel, but to have one or two chapters only would probably look sloppy. I've got a similar problem with my WIP, that one scene is going to be tricky to write because the main character isn't there, and the rest of the novel is 1st person.

Sorry Mr M, can't help you. I'm raw, I'll try anything. Understanding more, I still want to do things differently. I learn where my influences come from, I can talk loads about telly. I like Chrichton and Kelly, hence I have many protagonists each with their own plot revolving around a central plot. The whole work is loosley bound by themes.

So, I think I'd like print the damn thing, hand out fifty copies to random people holding paperbacks on the tube. Then I'd like to ask them. "Did you enjoy it? Was it a good story." I doubt one would object to your POV switch or my taking the reader out of the book.

Armed with the information it was a good story, I'd look into more technical aspects. Knowing I have something to work on.

Colin - I don't know if you've read Relentless by Simon Kernick but he cleverly switched between MC - present first person, and investigating cop - past 3rd person. It was a great structure.
As for the opening post - I'm a planner. I like to know exactly where my story is going. Things may change as I'm in the writing stage but I still need my map.
HB x

if the author can write. Next, will the book sell?

May sound cynical, but I think that for a publisher, these two things are the same. I mean, people have different ideas of what constitutes good writing. For a 5 year old learning to read, it's 'is it easy to understand?'. For a poet, it's 'does it use language excitingly'. For a publisher it will be 'will it sell to our customers?'

Re. plot, I'm not sure there's any such thing as plotless, since two or more events happening in sequence can be called a plot already - it's just that some plots work well and others don't.

I wouldn't have described Withnail as plotless; it's picaresque, I suppose, in a way, but the plot is 'two wannabe actors get a free holiday in the country, it turns out to not be what they expected at all, when they get back to London the world's changed and Fate decrees that they go their separate ways.' Isn't it?

We did have a similar conversation over picture books, Leila, where childrens Agents say that, even there, they like to see a plot, rather than just a theme and/or a series of observations.
To follow Colin's example: A child is in the fruit aisle of a large supermarket, counting out the oranges, apples, etc. The theme is counting. But where is the adult? Why is it the child who's counting out the fruit? What happens after the child has selected all the fruit? Is s/he going to have a balanced diet and count out vegetables? Maybe s/he makes up 'five a day' fruit and veg portions, so now you've got a theme of counting and healthy eating. Thow in a disabled mother in a wheelchair who has a basket balanced on her knees and can't reach the stacks of fruit and vegetables so her daughter is her main helper, and you're well on your way to a complete story in under 1000 words.


- NaomiM

Another way to look at plot is that it injects purpose into events. For example: a man goes into his local bar as normal. There is an interesting woman reading a book near his usual table. He catches her eye and she smiles slightly before returning to her book. He goes to the bar to buy another drink at the same time she does. Normally shy, he finds himself asking her about the book she's reading. She tells him the author - an obscure Argentinean, but one of his favourites. They continue talking; at the end of the evening he asks her out; they date and move in together. So far, it's just a variant on One Damn Thing After Another, slightly enlivened by the coincidence of her liking the same author as he. The story goes on: they have kids; one kid is bright, the other isn't; they have some tough times, grow old together; he dies, etc.

Instead: they've been together for nine months when one day he comes home early from work and hears her on the phone. Her voice sounds different. He asks her who she was speaking to and she says, "Oh, just one of those telesales people." A few days later, heart thudding, he's searching through her handbag. He finds a small diary; he checks the date of the day they met; then the day before: he sees his name written there . . . So now he and we suspect their meeting wasn't accidental; she planned to meet him. Why? Who is she working for? What will happen to him? What does he do about it?

And of course, in this scenario the writer has to create a main character who is the sort of person someone else would want to do this to, and, if we're to have an exciting climax, a character who is desperate about something. The introduction of a plot, in other words, ripples in all directions of the story, requiring the writer to make everything inter-relate to everything else, which creates levels of tension, anticipation and excitement.

Terry

May sound cynical, but I think that for a publisher, these two things are the same.

Not at all. A talented writer could write a beautifully crafted story about a cuddly bunny wunny and his collection of tactical ground to air defence systems. If they can't pin the book on an audience, a publisher might not be so keen on investing.

What do you think about writing a prologue to enable first / third switching?

This technique is frowned upon, yes, but it's one that crime/thriller writers use - in that format it seems to work as a great way of creating tension and driving the story forward. Harlan Coben does this particularly well in his crime novels.