Just been reading guidelines for a competition in which they differentiate between theme and story, wanting a deeper level of resonance and meaning beneath the story itself. How aware are you when you write of theme? How important is it to you? At what point do you discover your theme, or do you know what it is from the beginning?
Susiex

Very aware - in fact, when I get asked 'What's it about?' I usually have to stop myself saying, 'lost children' or 'transgressive sex' because that's much more present to me than 'Well there's this soldier...' For me, some of the time, the plot's chief function is to carry the themes, not the other way round. Having said that, as I get into it the characters and events acquire their own reality and momentum.

One or two themes are usually there from very, very early in the thinking. Others emerge, sometimes I think something will be important and then turns out not to be and revision-time is when I really try to bring them out, and cut the bits at the beginning which were establishing themes which fell away. Lots of small things, the little reinforcements, and the chains of images...

The new novel is the first where the main theme came to me before I even knew the period, let alone the characters. It's also unusual to have one theme much bigger than the others - most of which I don't know yet - so I'll be interested to see how it all works out...

Emma

For me, some of the time, the plot's chief function is to carry the themes, not the other way round.

Yes, that's what happens for me too: I have to be careful not to get too carried away by delivering the 'message',though. For me, what is running beneath the surface is why I write (I'm sure that's grammatically impossible, but hope you know what I mean!). It's like a current that drives what happens and (to mix metaphors now) it's also the glue that holds the story together. That's why I loved reading Clarissa Pinkola Estes's Women Who Run With The Wolves because she takes known (and less known) fairy tales and explores the deeper meanings within them.
Susiex

Read recently that most writers have a particular theme or themes that they write around again and again until they get it out of their systems. If they ever do.

I would say that that's certainly true of me. The theme is a flavour I'm particularly fond of and will probably dip in and out of throughout my writing career. The story itself speaks to me of the characters and the 'forward motion' of any narrative, the action, dialogue what-have-you, whereas I think of 'theme' as the backcloth that it all rests upon, even the plot. I suppose it's splitting hairs a bit really, as it all goes into the colourful soup we call 'story.

Best of luck if you're entering!

JB

Thanks JB, I'm having a go at three comps altogether.
My teacher said the other day: Your theme is transformation, isn't it? And she's right.
Susiex

I have to say I come at it the other way. Normally it's an action or situation that compels me. It is, of course, the theme behind that which powers the story but rarely overtly. Only after I've written them do I realise I've written umpteen versions of 'neglected child' and 'self deceit' which are common themes for me. But gawd, if I set out to illustrate such themes, the stories would be didactic and thin. I have to work on characters and their actions (i.e. story/plot) first. I'm aware of the themes but rarely intentionally illustrate them until the final draft when it's time to add the set dressing, like a song or choice of vocabulary, or some sensory detail that amplifies the theme without sending arrows in its direction.

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Don't mean to imply I think other who start with theme create thin or didactic work, just that if it were foremost in my mind it would show, and I prefer theme to be implicit.

Yes, it's a tricky one, isn't it? The story and the characters have to be at the forefront or else it does get didactic. Maybe it's a case of the writer always bearing the theme in mind as a kind of undercurrent. But, as you say, it can work the other way round: theme can emerge as you write, and then you can reinforce it in second draft. I just think it's a really vital part of the process and that truly 'thin' novels are those without any underlying theme. In fact, now I'm thinking about it, maybe that's what the theme is: a kind of nourishment?
Susiex

Can you think of one - Susie, a novel without theme?

I ask because I know a lot of writers who are adamant that theme is the key to a story and I don't know what on earth they mean. It's like saying legs are essential for walking. A truism. So what is the esoteric essence of this truism that I'm missing? The minute we write, whether or not we are conscious of it, we have a theme. How can one write without a theme? Theme exists immediately words are put down on the page. Doesn't it? Whether the theme is intelligently, sensitively explored, whether it's imaginative, idiosyncratic, worth exploring in the first place is another question, but I don't understand what writers mean when they lay claim to theme as the key to stronger work. How theme is handled is crucial, but its presence or absence doesn't seem part of the question to me. I've asked other theme-driven authors about this and they never answer.

What am I missing?

I guess that's right, cherys. Nothing is utterly without theme. Which leads me to think - what's the difference between a book where the writer is (or becomes) aware of theme and actively works with it, and a book where that doesn't happen? As you say, it's the way that the writer handles the theme which makes the difference.
I'm reading a novel at the moment about a woman who meets a man on the internet who turns out to be the husband of the woman she works for. It's very witty, very clever. The writer's turn of phrase is brilliant. But I find myself admiring this, rather than feeling any resonance with the characters or their situation. I guess the theme might be 'love'. But that's as far as it goes.
Susiex

This is interesting. I like the theme of transformation myself, and of course, you can have many different themes all under the one umbrella. I'd say the overall theme of my WiP is 'Destiny vs. Free Will' and all the quandries that the old argument throws up - in a hyper-reality setting, naturally - but I agree that I don't think you can have a 'theme-less' book.

I don't understand what writers mean when they lay claim to theme as the key to stronger work.

My take on this is that the theme infiltrates every part of the book and perhaps even gives it a moral 'anchor'. I don't mean moralistic, but just some richer texture that is woven in with the plot, but not as 'rigid' as plot, if that makes sense. Theme can add a real depth to what you do, because rather than just have characters performing actions that lead to some conclusion, through their eyes you can explore, as you say, much deeper matters. Matters than transcend character. I can see how it could make some work stronger.

JB

I think this might be one of those discussions where to some extent it depends what you mean by 'theme'.

I agree with JB, in that if I'm talking about 'theme', is separate from story, in that I could write the basics of that story without particularly brining out the themes that, actually, I do.

The theme of a love story, for example, isn't love between two people. That's the subject. To my mind a theme has to be something which comes out in several contexts in the story, exploring the idea. Rather like one metaphor of a ship isn't a pattern of images, but if you realise a play is full of them...

The theme of a love story might, however, be how love between cultures makes it both harder and easier, or how people fall in love with someone who fills a gap in themselves, or how love makes you do things you'd never do otherwise.

Or the love story might be carrying some completely other ideas. A big theme in A Secret Alchemy is alchemy (suprise surprise!), and one of the alchemical concepts I've used is the idea of the alchemical marriage between gold and silver and red and white. But there are lots of themes too. Secrecy is also a theme. The two come together in that it's full of secret marriages, hence the title. That kind of structure, to me, is when themes get interesting, and really start to add something to a book. I could have written the story of these people without going near any of it, but it wouldn't have been nearly such an interesting book to write or, I hope, to read, because it would have lacked all those extra layers of significance and meaning.

Emma

Maybe theme can be likened to the collective unconscious - it's swilling around under the surface with an intelligence of its own and its presence heightens, adds meaning and connects people's awareness in ways that may not be immediately obvious.
Susiex

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BTW Emma, did you read any of Jay Ramsay's books on Alchemy?

I rather like that idea of themes as collective unconscious...

No, I didn't read Jay Ramsey. Just lots of googling, a completely fascinating if rather mad book on Edward IV and alchemy and Arthurian thinking in the late 15th century, and the Cambridge Dictionary of Alchemical Imagery...

Emma

I see. If Love is not explored, developed, then the theme is not resonant. Or if Love is the theme and also the subject then the story is poorer for that. Or if theme doesn't run through several aspects of the book, examined in different ways, it is too much to the forefront and doesn't resonate.

Thank you Susie, Emma, JB.