Any words of wisdom on the above? How do people organise their material? Do people have a formula for putting in different threads of a story? For example if you have a main character's story A and several other sub-plots B,C and D - do you have a method for interweaving them? Any thoughts would be appreciated! And how do you see the bigger picture of structure when working on the details in each chapter?

Whoo, there's a lot of questions there, Traveller. I keep track of things by having a timeline written out with every day that the story covers on it. For especially complicated bits I break it down into what each character is doing on a particular day. That way I know where everyone is and what they're doing. I have three or four POV characters, and write a complete chapter for each of them, although not necessarily in strict rotation. That way the reader gets to see each of them screwing up in turn. <eg> I know not everyone likes a rotating POV, but you can do a lot with it, and provided you don't have too many, won't confuse the reader.

Cas

I've been thinking the same thing. There should perhaps be a discount for younger people.

One way to get around the misuse of such a scheme is to have a letter from the school supporting the application. Some magazines have such a scheme.

Geoff

Interesting Cas, you talk about the moving POV because I'm reading William Faulkner's As I Lay Dying which does this to good effect - have you read it?

- have you read it?

No I haven't. Is it good? I started writing a rotating POV because I didn't like omniscient, but could never get the hang of writing an entire novel in a single POV. I think it works for me as well, because I tend to have a group of main characters rather than a single protagonist.

Cas

Hi

Don't know if this will help - but I use index cards to keep track of the main events of the plot - starting off with a brief description of the event and then adding further notes -and further cards - as needed.

You could even use different colour cards for different characters - or different sub-plots.

I find this enables me to reshuffle the items within the plot - or sub-plot - until they fall (hopefully) into their natural place.

I've also used a grid format in a word document each line in the grid representing an element of the plot and then cutting and pasting the lines to re-order them.

All the best

jumbo

This has been a real puzzler for me, too, as I find it hard enough to manage my ideas for a short story, let alone a longer piece.

I went on a short programme recently where the tutor introducefd 'STEPS' to me. First time I had ever heard of it. (I am not sure if STEPS is supposed to be an acronym, but I am treating it like one.) It's very simple, but for a disorganised soul like myself, it's like a life line. You just bullet point the things that the protagonist has to deal with along the way to achieve his/her end.

So, you start with your inciting event, which tips the protag out of his/her comfortable start position, much like throwing him/her into the deep end (sorry about all this him/her, not being PC, but just not committing, that's all), then keep throwing all kinds of stuff at him/her as s/he's trying to save him/herself.

That helped me, too.

Ani

This has been a huge problem for me, as my current novel (that I’m still working on) is complex and has a complex back story.

The only way I’ve been able to get to grips with the material is to write it down chronologically. Year by year, day by day. However, even this approach has it s problems, as I start fleshing out the details it becomes ever more difficult to shuffle the order of the events because of the many dependencies.

As for the novel itself, mine is heavy on plot, I’ve found a chapter map invaluable. I plan out the contents of each chapter, this also means I can fiddle as many cliff hanger endings as possible. Having said that my first map was twenty two chapters long, the final draught sprouted to forty seven.

Grinder

It's nice to know that I'm not the only one struggling with this...the thing I find most difficult is having it all in my mind...must be possible I guess...I suppose it's like having a whole film in your mind and being able to play the different scenes at will

Traveller,

That's just it, isn't it? Having the idea trapped in your mind is a plague. The story is not going anywhere, and it won't let you forget it, either! As someone has described it to me, once you put your ideas on paper, then you can free up your creativity and get on with it.

Ani

An interesting extract from an interview with Michael Ondaatje about plot:

Let me ask you about the genesis of "The English Patient." I was curious how it came into being. Because it does have a narrative skeleton, but over that is a fantastically imaginative, rich overlay of words and images. What came to you first — an image? Or was the entire plot present in your mind from the beginning?

No, the plot wasn't there until I finished the book, probably. I don't really begin a novel, or any kind of book, with any sure sense of what's happening or even what's going to happen. Almasy [the badly-burned "English patient" whose tragic love affair with Katherine Clifton forms the heart of the book] wasn't in the story in my head. Kip [the Indian sapper, or bomb-disposal expert, whose love affair with the English patient's nurse, Hana, offers a counterpoint to Almasy's story] wasn't in the story. Caravaggio [a shadowy thief with bandaged hands] wasn't in the story. It began with this plane crash and it went on from there. Now, why did this plane crash? What did that have to do with this guy in the plane? Who was the guy? When was it happening? Where was it happening? All those things had to be uncovered or unearthed, as opposed to being sure in my head.

Then there was a nurse and there was a patient, there was a man who was stealing back a photograph of himself. It was those three images. I did not know who they were, or how they were connected. So I sat down, I started to write and try to discover what the story was. And build from those three germs, really. I tend not to know what the plot is or the story is or even the theme. Those things come later, for me.

Excellent extract, Traveller. Thanks for posting it.

Traveller, have you hit these problems in the writing of the novel, or are you mid-project? I ask because, it seems to me, a large number of writers shoot themselves in the foot by trying to preempt issues of structure and style before committing a single word to paper. Most problems resolve themselves in the writing and the end product is almost always different from what you intended at the start because characters tend to take over the storylines and run with them in ways you hadn't imagined beforehand. Don't put up obstacles by worrying in advance about how to merge and interweave storylines or you'll tie yourself in knots. If you know your beginning and your end, just get writing. Your first draft is just that: a first draft, a prototype, nothing more. Once its there, you can go back, identify the bits that work and that don't, and start put together a polished product. Shyama:-)

Good points, Shyama.

Writing a novel is a very organic process. As the characters develop they start to baulk at what their writer had planned for them. My four main characters are currently sitting round a table… they don’t know what to do next or what to say to each other and I’m damned if I’m going to help them. They got themselves into this situation and they can get themselves out. They’ve been there for days now and they’re starting to shuffle uncomfortably…

Dee
x

Heheh - nice to hear about other people's experiences - no, Scoop, I've finished the first and second draft of my novel and am currently waiting for agents to come back and tell me that they are not 'enthusiastic' enough to take on the project :-) I think people work differently but the Ondaatje interview surprised me, because I thought that he would plan his novels. I don't agree with you entirely Scoop - I think if I had a plan for my current novel, I'd have finished it earlier - it's important to have at least have a blueprint of the plot, otherwise you can spend years wandering around aimlessly. The next novel I'm working on has a more clearly defined plot, but it's not proving easier to write! I'm consciously trying to think more about the characters before putting pen to paper. I guess this is something that is a matter of personal taste and choosing which method suits you best.

<Added>

sorry, Scoops