'Never put a comma before and is nonsense.

I went to the shop to get milk, bread and butter, and while I was there I had a nice chat.

is perfectly good punctuation because the comma is linking two main clauses, which is a proper use. As it says in the Student's Guide to Writing that the English Department I work in

This is the first use of the comma, and it is a straightforward on.

And as for starting a sentence with 'and', we all do it all the time, and what better reason to use it in a novel?

Or indeed in a poem:

And did those feet in ancient time Walk upon England's mountains green?

If it's good enough for Our William, it's good enough for me, even if he was a mad visionary.

Emma

Here's another example where I think the absence of a comma before the 'and' makes the sentence ambiguous :

We ordered a chocolate 'negus' terrine, one coconut tart, nutmeg ice cream with raspberry sauce and one warm apple tart for me.

What do other people think? And can you guess the source?

Sheila

Yes, it does make it ambiguous. Can't guess the source, though, though it sounds a very tasty one...

Emma

<Added>

How about:

I had to choose between bread and jam and toast and dripping.

is ambiguous. You absolutely need that comma:

I had to choose between bread and jam, and toast and dripping.

It came from Michael Winner's column in the Sunday Times. He's a good example of somebody who shouldn't write about food because he has such a poor vocabulary. In fact, he dictates his responses into a recorder and I suppose someone else supplies the punctuation. Given his circumstances, Michael Winner doesn't have to bother with punctuation.

Sheila

Putting a comma before and grates me to the teeth. Plus starting a sentence with and is a joke, tbh. NEVER put a comma before and, and never start a sentence with the word and. Simple isnt it? The comma before and I'm looking into. And the author list is endless so it doesn't seem to matter other than to me. I'm not going to even complain about that one! When I was a youngster at school, however, putting a comma before an and would lose you one mark. GUARANTEED.

Sorry, I had a little fun punctuating the passage.
Anyone want to give me marks out of 10? I think may have made a few mistakes.

LoL Naomi!

I'm not going to even complain about that one! When I was a youngster at school, however, putting a comma before an and would lose you one mark.

But it's good to know that there was a limit to even that school's inaccurate pedantry: evidently a split infinitive wouldn't.

Emma

Putting a comma gefore and grates me to the teeth plus starting a sentence with and is a joke tbh. NEVER put a comma before and and never start a sentence with the word and. Simple isnt it. The comma before and I'm looking into and the author list is endless so it doesn't seem to matter other than to me. I'm not going to even complain about that one. When i was a youngster at school however puttting a comma before an and would lose you one mark. GURANTEED. regards j

She's not serious, is she? For someone who can't punctuate properly, she does like to lay down silly rules.

The comma before 'and' is known as the Oxford comma, because it's used by Oxford University Press. You also sometimes need a comma before and in a list to make things unambiguous.

As far not starting a sentence with 'and': anyone who think that's true can't have done much reading, or have had a good teacher when they were a youngster.

Many people ignore, or are unaware that the comma, for instance, is not only used to give a pause in the text. It can also change the meaning of a sentence. The most well-known example would be:

A herbivore eats shoots and leaves.

Place a comma after 'eats' and the meaning is changed entirely. Trite, but it might serve to illustrate my point. (Incidentally, I know 'and leaves' should be 'and then leaves'. At least 'Word's' stylist feature keeps telling me so.)

As for prepositions at the start of sentences, well this is encouraged by failing to use commas or semi-colons in their proper place.

Sir George Bernard Shaw scorned the use of the apostrophe, so I am told. What will be disposed of next? Upper case letters for proper nouns? The full stop? Paragraphs?

Or am I just old fashioned? Even though I have just used 'fragmentary sentences' here and there.

Happy Writing.


John

Hi Emma,

I agree with you, to a point. In any kind of writing though, poor punctuation can cause 'howlers'. Breaking so-called rules, might well be 'okay' for creative writing. However, should a reader lapse into a bout of 'uncontrollable mirth', when the author intended the opposite, I would say the effect had been ruined.

But I am a crusty old curmudgeon! And I don't know how to post smilies ... And are they a feature of this forum? Oh! I just found out how to post smilies, but I didn't want a green one!!! And to Hades with Elmore Leonard and his views on the exclamation mark!!! Actually, I agree with him, but I like to kick over traces now and again.

Happy Writing
Regards
John

How about:

We could choose between apple tart or bread and dripping. Which would you have chosen? I suppose it depends on whether or not you mind putting on weight!

Oh how I wish I could live on punctuation.

Happy writing
John