Hi Adele, I think whatever keeps us writing is good, - I didn't mean to be obscure about what I was saying. If it looks as if I meant 'if I don't like it it's no good', then I didn't explain myself at all well.

What I mean is that at some point, however spontaneous writing is, (and maybe particularly for short story writers), it's good to try to work out what pulls everything together in your work so that the whole body of work makes a coherent sense.
Why does it have to? I don't know the answer to that, and maybe it doesn't,- this is just a thought I'm exploring at the moment. I'm trying to work something out that's connected with why we write and what we want to say. So, I guess what I mean is that while writing exercises keep us honed up, because the subject is decided by someone else there's the danger that they can be diversions from the heart of the matter about why you write personally. (another badly written sentence).

This isn't about what I like or don't like, it's a much less personal statement than that. It's about the idea that if 'analysing' our short stories and seeing how they fit together has any merit at all,- and that could be questioned,- then is it possible that getting too hooked up in exercises takes us away from whatever path we're each travelling on in our writing? It would be good to think that you could take up any random phrase and make it fit in with your own concious or unconcious, .. I can never find the right word for this,.. interest, quest, thing that moves you to write. It would be really interesting if in fact that was true, - (that the stories that come from exercises were as much part of the underlying theme in an individual writer's work as anything else they'd written),- but one way of knowing if it was true, would be to try and look what links all your stories together. I think, at the moment anyway, that focusing down on it like that gives a writer a stronger base to write from.
Thanks for prompting me to explain it better, if I have?
Becca.

Hi Colin.
'Canny'is a good word, not used enough. I'd never thought about where it comes from.
Becca.

Hello Len.
You were writing at the same time as me trying to explain what I was getting at. I think you could sell a set of stories about obsession and delusion, they are quite zeitgeisty at the moment, with the world as it is, gloomy and tense. But I'll tell you what I did discover through thinking about the stories I write, that there are only two of them in which anyone triumphs. That, more than anything, would be the thing that made them unsaleable. I was quite shocked by the discovery, but glad I made it. So now I want to try and do something about that.
There's always the arguement that you could become too self concious in writing by analysing the work, that's a bit scary. But when you talk to someone you're expected to know what you're saying, so when you write, shouldn't you have the same level of responsibility?
As for style, that's something that evolves naturally over time, so we shouldn't have to pay attention to it should we? unless we're trying to imitate someone else's style for some unknown reason.
Becca.

Good morning, Becca, and thanks for your reply. Yes, that, for me, is a much clearer exposition of your point. I've done only one of the RLG exercises, as I need to stay focused on my novel (I am already too easily distracted). However, I think that kind of exercise can tap into seams of creativity that may go unmined when we are focused on the themes of our 'real' work.

I think your requirements as an experience professional writer are different from those of people, like me, who are relative neophytes. Since I started using this site, I am convinced that I have started to use parts of my brain that have lain, rusting and immobile, probably since childhood. That comes, in part, from reading a much greater variety of writing than I have done for years, which has made made think about my own writting in different ways. And I would put the RLG exercises under the same umbrella.

You may now be a strong cross-Channel swimmer, but I'm sure there was a time when you, too, were struggling with the doggy paddle. People must use whatever stimulus works for them (and Adam, if you're reading this, I don't mean amyl nitrate )

Adele.



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Apologies for the typos - I'm not quite awake yet!

Hi again Adele,
I'm glad you challenged me about what I meant, because I'm still working it out I think, and thinking about Len's response. I don't even feel like I know how to doggy paddle, let alone swim. But I do remember a time when I was writing completely in a void, in isolation I mean. It was a strange experience compared to now being able to talk to other writers, but a valuable one I think. Do you ever question why you write at all?

I've been doing that lately. I'm wondering if I've come to the end of a seam, hence all the introspection on my part. Shall I give myself a good slap?
Becca.

Hi Becca, I certainly question why I write at all, particularly when my work has been rejected by agents, or when I am told for the millionth time that I should wake up, stop wasting my time, and get myself a new job. I know that a craving for external validation is a weakness on my part, but it's there all the same. Anyway, I shall continue to write whilst I have the opportunity.

As for slapping, I don't believe that solves anything. You should give yourself a big hug instead.

Adele.

LOL.
Becca.

Becca,

I DO understand that style develops and perhaps the more one writes the less able one is to change what becomes one's 'style'. Of course one can sell a set of stories that echo gloom and tension. However I think that you confuse yourself with illogical statements. The 'level of responsibility' you refer to does not equate with 'knowing what one is talking about' in discussion.

Such trains of thought only lead to the confusing jungle of word definitions. However it is a free world and if you wish to embark on such a journey of self-discovery, then by all means set sail.

Remember, if we are to call ourselves 'writers' then this pre-supposes an intention to produce work that is to be read by others. It is their verdict that matters and if their concerted opinion or reaction is that you have a theme of gloom and despair, so be it.

Mind you, some writers made a fortune by writing the same theme over and over again... dear Barbara Cartland with her usual characters and situations epitomises this. If this 'one-book' author had attempted to analyse her work as you are trying to do with your own then I am sure she would have been a good case for Psychiatric care. One can 'read' almost anything one wants to through 'analysing' the work of any writer.

Just be content with having a creative mind and a creative pen.

Len

Len, Can I throw in a quick aside here? Last time I was writing (seven or eight years ago), my agent of the time - who is very successful, and whom I still respect a lot - told me that I had better learn well how to write the kind of book I was attempting (a financial thriller - never again!), as I would be expected to write the same kind of book for the next twenty years. I'm rather glad the first one never got off the ground, as that was a horrifying thought.

The point is, though, that writers of genre fiction are expected to stay inside the genre. Barbara Cartland's readers bought her books expecting fluffy pink romance, and that is what she dutifully provided.

Adele.

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Can't believe I'm defending BC - may she sprinkle shiny sprink stardust on my from her boudoir in heaven.

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on me

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pink!!! must wake up!

Adele,

If we are talking about genre then, of course, I agree. But we are not. Becca's point was that she identifies 'themes' that run through her work. My point was that if one wishes to start in-depth analysing then this can quickly become a minefield of self-analysis and word-interpretation.

For example I am sure many writers can find such 'themes' as disappointments, emotions, upsets, kindness, off-beat and so on, from their work; however each of these beg further definition for they can mean very different things to people.

My main point is that such analysis can be inhibiting to one's creative abilitiies and, analysing the creative quality of any written work, allows one to 'find' as many 'themes' (not genres) as one wants to and to describe them in as many 'descriptive words' as wine critics use.

I do not look for the 'themes' that Becca identifies in her work... and if I did I would not use her words. I just read and enjoy her work and respect her creative abilities.

Newspapers cuttings and indeed any references, notes, snippets etc that may feed the creative mind, can be kept. However it not the 'theme' that normally acts as the catalyst but some words, the phrase, the subject matter and so on.

Some years ago my company used the services of two Agencies in the newspaper cuttings business. I am sure that if their brief had been 'gloom and despondency' we would have received the most peculiar results from their many home-readers.

Len

Becca, sorry for the delay in replying. Of course I don’t hate you! LOL. I was out all day yesterday on a research trip to the wet and windswept saltmarshes of the Lune Estuary – and it would be an impoverished spirit who came away from there without inspiration. For instance, I heard that on Wednesday a man returning from a spot of night fishing stumbled, literally, over the head and shoulders of a skeleton sticking up out of the marsh. My mind went off on all sorts of tracks… how long had it been in there? Why was it trying to crawl out now?

I suppose the point I’m trying to make is that we should be on the lookout for inspiration wherever it presents itself. And if that is an opening line supplied by someone else then I don’t see anything wrong with that. It’s what we do with the inspiration that matters. If we do have a theme, whether conscious or subconscious, it will be there in our work regardless of where the idea came from.

I agree that we tend not to critique RLGs in the same depth we do everything else. I’m in two minds about this. One of my favourite shorts - Kissing Shadows – came from an RLG and I wouldn’t have written it without that first line. There was also what I feel is one of my worst - The Crossing (about cross-channel swimming funnily enough ) and if I’d had more constructive criticism (not that I’m complaining!) I might have been inspired to improve it. But, on the other hand, RLG is supposed to be a bit of fun… so I don’t know.

Dee.
x

Hey Len, you were the one who gave the Barbara Cartland example, but excuse me if I got confused. I can't read your thoughts; I can only see the words you write.

Adele.

Colin, where are you? I’m from Northumberland originally.

Canny, in Northumbrian, means nice, OK, well-respected, sometimes cute. In Scotland it means crafty, street-wise. In another part of the country – not sure where – it means clever.

Dee
x

Dee, I used to think of canny as being, to use your words, a mixture of crafty, street-wise and clever. Then I had a boyfriend from the Scottish Borders, whose mother (originally from the English side of the border), early on in our relationship, told me that he was canny. Although he was definitely canny with money (in a prudent Gordon Brown way), I waited and waited for any sign of being streetwise, and came there none. So I asked her what she had meant, and she explained that she had meant nice.

Coming from Yorkshire, it was rather strange to discover that I needed a translation to understand the words of someone from practically the next county.

Adele.

Len, I do see your point and of course it's the way someone's writing is seen by the reader. My thoughts though, having done this type of inspection, are that I need to get more winning situations into my stories. Yes, they've always been dark, I'm not sure I'm ever going to get away from that, but I do sometimes wonder if I shouldn't just lighten up.

on Adele's point, Stephen King would be hard pushed to write anything outside the horrible box he's caught himself in. But I expect he doesn't care much about that.

Hi Dee, I could do with the windswept saltmarshes right now. I did go to Epping Forest yesterday and was amazed at the astonishing size and age of the beech trees there, never saw another person there in the hours I wandered about. I agree that anything and everything is potential inspiration for writing, and I don't know what you think about this, but I find that sometimes I'm highly attuned to it all, and at other times nothing gets through. Mind you if I came across a skeleton on the saltmarshes I'd be really excited about it! What's going to happen to it?
Becca.