A quote from Caro55
[With this one, I'm also going to be much more careful about who I choose to show it to - last time a lot of the feedback, whether positive or negative, was pretty vague and useless.]

This is one thing I’ve wondered about. After you have completed your revision to the 95% mark, and you want some feedback on the books worth as entertainment, where do you get honest useful feedback?

Non-writers will probably give positive/negative vague feedback. Friends and family will not give honest feedback. Writers will not read the book objectively. They will look at it from a writers viewpoint, which is not the same as a non-writer who is looking for entertainment only. Not even the copy editor can tell you if your books good entertainment.

The only solution I can see is to give it to strangers to read, and ask them if the book entertained them or bored them.

Azel

Hi Azel -
You could send it to the Hilary Johnson Agency or to TLC, though it can be pricey. Of course they're looking at it from the point of view of an editor, and I know that's not quite what you're asking. But as part of that role, they have to assess how entertaining the book is, in order for it to sell. One other option is to post it on You Write On (similar site to this, funded by the Arts Council). They have a 'bestseller list'every month, which I suppose would give a sense of which extracts posted are the most entertaining. But wouldn't people on WW give you a fair idea if you posted your book here?
Susiex

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"Writers will not read the book objectively. They will look at it from a writers viewpoint, which is not the same as a non-writer who is looking for entertainment only."

Not sure about this. If you asked, up front, for comments just about the entertainment value, I reckon you'd receive them. Also, are all non-writers just looking for entertainment? And how do you define entertainment? :)

I am lucky, Azel, in that I also write children's fiction and children as as honest as you can get as to whether they liked it or not, and they will also overlook a certain amount of 'poor' prose.
Adults, however, are less forgiving of the technical aspects of the prose and are far more likely to give up rather than read on. There is far more to an 'entertaining' read than just a good storyline so I would always ask a fellow writer to review my adult fiction rather than merely a reader, since an experienced writer tends to auto-correct the prose as they read and can usually tell if there is a kernal of a good story running through it.

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Also asking a reader whether they liked it or not is highly subjective. Take Ian McEwan's On Chesil Beach which has sold almost 200k copies. That's only 0.3% of the UK population. Finding just one person who liked his book from sample of eg. 10 readers would be lucky. Although most of those 10 would be able to tell if his writing was good or not.

The people who read an early-ish draft of my first novel (and resulted in the quote above!) were:

Best friend
Husband
Another close friend
2 acquaintances
1 non-fiction writer who I knew quite well
The mum of one of the acquaintances (a complete stranger to me)

The first three are those I expected to say it was good, just for the sake of a quiet life, but in fact they were much more helpful than any of the others. Though they all said they loved the book (of course!) they all made a few tentative suggestions for improvement, and once they saw I wasn't offended, they were able to make more suggestions. They were also a captive audience for my leading questions, which drew out more feedback.

The two (separate) acquaintances were a right pain. They both knew I was writing, and had spent the last year saying "when can I read it? When? When? Ah, go on, lemme, lemme." One of them didn't really 'get' the book, and also thought it was a bit shocking for an innocent young lady like me, so didn't really come up with any useful comments apart from 'it's a good storyline I suppose.' The other kept it for 16 weeks without getting round to reading it, so I asked for it back, then he managed to read 4 chapters, gave back the MS... and then asked what happens next. I was also pissed off that he gave it to his mum to read without my permission - the feedback from that quarter was 'yeah, she thought it was pretty good.' And? And?

The writer was slightly helpful but was finishing off a last-minute edit of her own book so I didn't want to push her for more detail.

So that, at great length, is my feedback story! Only when I joined WW did I get much sense out of anyone.

Caro

Caro, I think it's amazing that you got that many people to read it - I find that mostly people don't want to know if it's not been published. Though my next-door neighbour says she'd like to...
But to be fair, I reckon people are a bit scared of reading stuff written by anyone they know,just in case it's awful and they feel under pressure to say something positive. It's the same with painting, I find.
I have to be honest and say my heart tends to sink when someone 'offers' me their work, especially if it's very long. Because often, if they are a friend, their whole self and sensitivity is tied up with it, which makes it a bit problematical. Thank God for places like WW!
Susiex

spent the last year saying "when can I read it? When? When? Ah, go on, lemme, lemme."

- yup, I had one of those, who then kept making excuses as to why she hadn't read it, so I knew it had to be bad.
I also approached one of the teachers at our local primary school and asked her to read one of my early stories, and tell me if it was any good or not, but she never got back to me and now avoids me in Sainsbury's. So I wouldn't recommend either approach.
My best readers have been close friends wth kids who know I won't mind if they're honest about it. THe disadvantage is if they don't like it, or think a part of it doesn't really work, they have no idea what to suggest to improve it.

I find this thread interesting.

So some of you are saying that people, you ask to read your material, rate you as lower class if you are unpublished, and upper class if you’re published. I had never thought of that large class distinction. I guess it makes sense. I would much rather read a published author’s work, as opposed to an unpublished writer.

I had a friend once, he had no writer training on any kind, and he wanted me to read a vampire story of his. I refused. I knew it would be a big waste of my time.

I can understand now why people are reluctant to read the work of unpublished writers. I suppose writers, like myself, are always pushing unfinished manuscripts onto others, rudely asking for their time.

Well, I’ve learned my lesson. I won’t be making the mistake of pressing anyone to read my work. I’ll use writer groups or professional paid readers.

Azel

Azel, don't forget that all writers were readers first. In fact, one of the most important things you learn as you become a more experienced writer is to read your own work as a reader, when you're trying to see what needs revising. Of course you'll be quite a sophisticated, experienced reader, but you won't be so different from other sophisticated experienced readers who happen not to write.

Non-writers will vary in how happy they are to read your work - and yes, I've had the ones who were dying to read it, they said, and then didn't. (I think they discover that reading a novel in manuscript is a complete pain because you can't read it anywhere but at a desk or in an armchair.) But it's very rare to find a non-writer who can tell you why they didn't like what they didn't like in a way that helps you re-write it, and that's what you need.

Emma

Yes, Emma, I want to read my work as a ‘reader’, but it has become more and more difficult with each revision. I started revising the first draft last spring, and I have been at it all summer.

When I wrote the first draft, I purposely wrote reader emotional response into the paragraphs. I was trying to evoke an emotion in the reader. There is a rhythm, and a word order, a writer has to write into the sentences/paragraphs to pass on that emotion to the reader.

Usually, I can feel that rhythm in the work and I do my revising carefully, so as to not destroy it. Lately, I have revised the same chapters so much that all I see is words and sentences. When I read them there is no emotional response inside me. I’m at a point where I can’t do any revising, because I can’t ‘feel’ the work anymore. I have read the same lines too many times.

A writer has to feel the emotion to make the corrections. With no emotion, it’s like driving at night without headlights. You can’t see where you are going. The writer my damage the rhythm of the work.

I probably need to send it to an agency like Hilary Johnson, or I need to put it away for a few months. I hate to stop revising it. I am afraid if I stop I may never finish it.

So, yes, I agree. I need to be the reader, but how can I make my view fresh again?

Azel

So some of you are saying that people, you ask to read your material, rate you as lower class if you are unpublished, and upper class if you’re published.

??

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A writer has to feel the emotion to make the corrections.

That is a tricky one as I find it easiest to correct typos and certain technical mistakes with a degree of detatchment from the text - often one is advised to work from the back of the manuscript so as to be one step away from the story and the emotional aspect of it, which makes the eye skip over typos. However, I agree that for the plot and the rhythum of the words one should be emotionaly connected with the story and this is partly why writers are advised to put their work away for a few weeks or months before coming back and revising it so they have a 'fresh eye'. If you have got to the stage where it's looking 'dead' to you, then it would be best to take a break from it for a while.

Yes, it's hard, isn't it. Two things can help - putting it away, as you say, and the longer the better. It also helps if you write something else while it's in the drawer - it's a bit like the way that people tasting wine eat something to clear their palate between different wines.

And when you get it out again, I suggest you print it off, and sit somewhere comfortable that isn't where you usually work. Then read it briskly, straight through, as you would someone else's novel. Have a pencil, and mark on the MS anything that doesn't work. If the right word occurs to you immediately that's fine, but otherwise don't stop to try to get it right there and then. Just write 'too slow' or 'grammar?' or 'check colour of car' or 'would it work better to start with this scene?' or whatever. Then you can go back to the computer and work your way through the MS solving all those problems.

Emma

So some of you are saying that people, you ask to read your material, rate you as lower class if you are unpublished, and upper class if you’re published.

No, I don't think it's anything to do with class in terms of social status. Perhaps some people are a bit snobby about unpublished work, but I think there are also many who are fascinated by it - hence those of us who were pestered to let someone read it. Perhaps they are just intrigued to find out how bad it is, but many people will ask to see it rather than have to have it foisted on them.

But it's very rare to find a non-writer who can tell you why they didn't like what they didn't like in a way that helps you re-write it, and that's what you need.

Very true. It's best not to expect too much from non-writing friends - sometimes the only advantage of letting them read it is that they finally stop asking you how it's going.

Caro

No-one has asked to read my book outside writing circles (in those circles people have been interested to read parts). Most people who know I am writing a book are a bit patronising about it, implying (or even saying) that it's something for me to do, to keep me from getting bored.

I don't see myself like that at all, because I'm serious about it and don't consider that I'm just passing time, but I don't really care what they think because none of them actually know anything about the process, or how much time I have spent learning to write fiction.

My husband has read all my short stories in the past, but has told me he won't read my novel till I've finished the first draft, because he wants me to get on with it and feels that's an incentive. He will read it then, and make useful comments. He's quite incisive despite not being interested in writing at all, and having quite different taste in novels to me.

I expect my mother would read it at that stage if I asked her to. She'd be interested, but I think my writing scares her a little.

Deb

While we are on the subject of how the people in your life treat you, when they find out you are working on a book (unpublished writer). (The people at work, friends, family, etc.) If I understand correctly from some of your postings, you are not taken seriously as a writer, and they do not want to read your work. (At least not in a serious way. They are just being polite.)

For those of you who were finally published, how did the ‘same people in your life’ react? Did you move up to first-class citizen in their eyes? Did they treat you like a published author? Did they really want to read your work after you were published? Or, were you snubbed, made fun of, ignored? Perhaps they were a bit envious, or perhaps they thought, you thought, you were ‘better than them.’

You don’t have to give real names, family relationships, or in anyway point-them-out. (They may read this forum also.) But, it would be interesting to find out how one is treated, if one is luckly enough to be published.

Now is your chance to let us unpublished writers know what to expect.

Azel

Interesting question, Azel.

Deb