Could someone please explain the mechanics of POV to me? My MC is not in every scene which means, of course, it can't all be from her POV (she is largely excluded from the sub-plot scenes). Does POV mean we always get to hear her opinion on everything? Even when she's there, I'm writing it more from an omniscient POV, really, although we get to hear what she hears, thinks, etc. not the other characters (although I'd like to explore the thoughts of the others sometimes, too). What are the 'rules'? Confused. Thanks.

I get confused about POV too. My understanding, based on what you've said about your book, would be that it's fine to go into other people's POVs when you're away from your main character, but that when you are with her, everything must be seen from her POV. It would be terribly confusing to switch POV within the same scene.
Susiex

Yes, as Susie says, avoid switching POVs in the same scene - for the reader it's a bit like trying to support both teams on the pitch.
However if your main character is not in the scene then it is ok to pick someone else and tell it from their pov - preferably pick someone who gets the best 'view' of what is going on. That may not necessarily be the person who gets the complete picture, but it could be the most 'entertaining' character, someone the reader can empathise with, or even an unobtrusive observer commenting on the antics going on around them.

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Having omniscient and a single character's povs in the same scene is ok, and is a good way of switching between characters; dipping in and out of their povs as the story progresses. Although, certainly in children's fiction, th omniscient pov is thought of as a little old fashioned.

If your narrative voice is sometimes from inside your MC's head, and sometimes ominiscient - it sees or thinks things that your MC can't - then there's no reason you can't slip from there into someone else's head in scenes where your MC isn't present.

I have to say, though, that there's no reason to stick to a particular PoV for a whole scene if it doesn't suit the story. It is harder to do well - which is maybe why sticking to one PoV gets prescribed to beginners - but if you learn how to do it, it opens up the possibilites for your writing enormously.

The main thing is to make sure you are always solidly sure where, exactly, you are: how far inside a character's head (simply physical viewpoint? thoughts? actual though 3rd person voice?). And then you need to make sure you take the reader with you when you switch. I find the easiest way is to go from character A's head into a neutral, external view of them, to a neutral external view of the character B, and then into their head.

It's too long to quote here, but one of the stories I've got posted in the archive her on WW, Russian Tea, started as an exercise in switching PoV, which I hadn't done much before, and ended up being one of my most succesful. Almost all the switches between their minds are via physical detail. It starts with a good chunk of each, which is appropriate as they're all but strangers when they meet, and once they're established the switches get more frequent as they make friends, and have more discreet signs. Quick switches are dangerous when we don't know the characters well, (or some would say between lots of characters) because you risk the reader not really feeling along with any character, but once we do know them, there's no reason not to.

Emma

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you can't slip from omniscient into someone else's head in scenes where your MC isn't present.

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ach!

no reason you can't slip from omniscient into someone else's head in scenes where your MC isn't present.

switches get more frequent as they make friends, and are signalled with more discreet signs.

There's a brilliant explanation of POV and all its varieties in Damon Knight's Creating Short Fiction, available on Amazon. It's the best, most comprehensive and clearest explanation of POV I have ever seen.

Nearly all the info in the book applies to novel-length fiction too - certainly the POV stuff is equally relevant.

Deb

Thanks, guys, I feel much clearer about it now.

Emma, sadly your Russian Tea link doesn't work. A great shame, I would have loved to read it.

[quote]Although, certainly in children's fiction, th omniscient pov is thought of as a little old fashioned./quote]

Can anyone comment on its current status in adult fiction?

Lastubs, try this (sorry, meant to check I'd got the link right in Preview, but forgot to):

http://www.writewords.org.uk/archive/12696.asp

or just go into my profile and click the 'work' tab.

Emma

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It depends what you mean by omniscient.

If by 'omniscient' you mean a 19th century authorial, authoritative, commenting sort of narrative personality - George Eliot style, say - it's true that there's a lot less of it about than there used to be. Though to my mind the fact that not many writers do something is no reason not to give it a try if it seems to be what you want.

But all 'omniscient' really means is that things are narrated from a viewpoint that no single character can have. What's wrong with that? If you're trying to write fiction of any narrative complexity, it makes it an awful lot easier, for one thing. And you've got a lot more scope for using multiple PoVs, too, exploring different reactions to the events, and that kind of thing. And it really isn't very hard to do - no technically harder than hundreds of other things writers learn to handle.

Thanks for your efforts, Emma. I'm afraid that, as a temporary member, I still can't read it.

It depends what you mean by omniscient.

I meant your second example and after posting my query I realised that many novels are still written this way.

As an aside, a lot of novels these days seem to be written in a non-linear form. Is a linear tale now considered old-fashioned?

I think non-linear, having started out as something weird and modernist (though of course Sterne got there 200 years earlier with Tristram Shandy) has just been absorbed into the mainstream of possibilities, at least at the more literary end of the spectrum where readers are expecting to do more work in putting the story together. But I can't imagine the straightforward telling of a main narrative and subplots from beginning through middle to end is ever going to go out of fashion.

Emma

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Sorry, I didn't know you're only a temp. member. There's one solution to that, of course! ;) :)

Deb,

Completely agree about Damon Knight's book--one of the best I've ever read on fiction writing (and much of it can be applied to novels as well as short stories). Too often, people write books or articles about the mechanics of fiction from a position of what the they

think

is great depth and insight but in fact only deals with the basic levels. Knight's book by contrast has that strong, challenging, grip of someone who really knows what they're talking about. I'm sure all those years of teaching at Clarion must have helped him consolidate what he'd learnt as a writer. Who'd have thought science fiction could produce such insight (I'd put a smiley face here except I don't know how to do one--either virtually or in real life).

Terry

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I obviously don't know how to do italics, either.

I'd put a smiley face here except I don't know how to do one--either virtually or in real life

I'm sure that's not true, Terry...

Glad you agree about Damon Knight's book. I think it's taught me more than any other book I've read about writing fiction, and I've read quite a lot!

Deb

As kindly passed on to me by caro:
A smiley is a colon and a right bracket
A frowney is a colon and a left bracket
A wink is a semi colon and a right bracket




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Not sure how one does it in real life. Think it has something to do with wrinkling up the mouth-thingy...

Emma, thanks for another clear-cut and very useful reply.

Sorry, I didn't know you're only a temp. member. There's one solution to that, of course!

Well, you could email it, but perhaps you prefer to keep your work for full WW members, which is fair enough. Much as I would like to read your story, though, I'm afraid I can't pay £20 I don't have for the privilege.

lastubbs, I am on a free month membership and I was able to read (and enjoy) Emma's Russian Tea story. I just clicked on her name, went to her home page and clicked on Work and it was there.
susiex

This knowledge could be a life-changer . . .

Lastubbs, I'm sure you didn't mean it, and it's probably that old problem of how intention doesn't always translate accurately via e-prose, but your comment sounds a little rude towards Emma. The way I see it, she's been helpful to you with your question, but you've made it sound like she's charging you £20 to read her story, which is obviously not the case. Like I said, I'm sure this is just a wonky translation, and I'm just mentioning it in case anyone else besides me noticed.

Best wishes,

Terry