I was looking at the University of East Anglia's web page for its MA in Creative Writing. It states that the programme "best suits those whose work is self-aware rather than instinctive."

How do you all interpret this? And do you favour one approach over the other (instinctive/intuitive vs self-aware)?

This has me thinking. (Shocking! Actually thinking!) I've read books such as Natalie Golderg's Writing Down the Bones and Julia Cameron's The Artist's Way, as these come highly recommended. They're certainly for the instinctive writer. But I have felt that it's hard to think through what you're writing when you just let it gush out. It's hard to control. It's hard to be self aware.

Personally, I'd say that I need to balance these two sides of writing. Perhaps the quoted passage above from the UEA website is rather extreme, trying to pigeonhole writers.

Ani

Hi Ani,

I don;t think they are trying to pigeon-hole writers, but, because it is an academic course, they want people who want to analyse, critique and generally be aware of process and form. They want academics, or already very talented writers they can stick on ther allumni list. The telling quote in that web page is that they say we do not pretend to teach people how to be writers. My question would be: what do you teach then? They offer a chance to share your work and get advice from other writers and experts; to let you and your work grow. You get that here don't you? Writing, in my opinion, like all the crafts, is not an academic discipline and one best honed in the arena, not the classroom.

Harry

I don't think I expressed my poin very well. I felt, upon reading the information at the UAE site, that they were assuming there are two types of writers: self-aware and instinctive writers.

I have been swayed by the literature on writing to believe that I should just let it go, not think too much. The zen sort of thing.

But I am questioning this assumption that we should kick out the internal monitor (also, in a negative sense, called the internal critic), particularly in view of the UAE site. UAE grooms top-notch writers. And I do believe that there is much to be learnt. Not that I agree with what seemed to be a rather simplistic division of writers into two camps, the instinctive v conscious, but I do want to write with awareness.

Ani

PS - I do however note that my productivity is low, and not of particularly high quality!

Hi Ani,

Interesting point, I have never really thought of there being such a distinct division in writing. Just a personal thought, but I think the two compliment each other. I mean, when doing the first draft I like to try to be instinctive. However when editing I try to self-aware. This is not something I can claim to be much good at, and I have many things to learn. But that is what I am starting to think is the best approach for me. I am always concerned that if I try to be to self-aware from the outset this will stifle creativity and make me doubt my work to much. However my first drafts always need some stiff editing to make them, I hope, presentable. It's much nicer, I think, to just let it flow in the first place, and worry about the awareness after you have at least got something down on paper.

I have not looked at the website, but just from your description the course sounds decidedly dry and unappealing, although I’m sure the list of alumni would be intimidating.

Sam


PS - Ani, I would never say your quality is low!

Ani, you made your point quite clear I just missed it. Sorry.

I agree with Sam, that the two compliment each other well. I do know some people who can just sit down and write, no outline, synopsis, anything. I'm not one of those. I need to know where it's all going or I tend to waffle(like my previous comment on this thread) I am, however a great believer in trusting your instincts. I just need to keep a check on mine from time to time.

Cheers

Harry

In my experience, it sounds less like trying to divide writers or writers' brains up, and more like wanting writers who are able to be critical and clear-sighted, objective, about their work. The UEA work at a pretty high level in terms of their alumni, and while I don't think lack of academic experience would be such an issue, I do think they want to know that you can operate with a degree of insight rather than needing a teacher/set-up where you are very guided, as you would be in a community college or writer's group, possibly....

Writing, in my opinion, like all the crafts, is not an academic discipline and one best honed in the arena, not the classroom

I really agree Harry. The best art is created from street experience, not out of a text book which adheres to a set of pre designed 'rules'. Anyone can learn the craft to a satisfactory level, but you cannot teach someone to have an imagination that will elevate that writing to something 'other'. Compared to music say, it's the difference between Gareth Gates and Jimi Hendrix.

I don't undertsand their statement at all. Isn't it possible to be both instinctive and self aware?

JB

I would have thought that they're both absolutely vital; 'art' and 'craft,' tapping the mysterious, creative subconcious stuff and crafting it within a framework that speaks coherently, lucidly and to the greatest effect, to the rest of the world. Isn't the ability to do this what makes great writers great? But everybody starts at the beginning and finds his/her own path.

I think what Goldberg and Cameron do so well is to help enable and encourage the imagination in those of us who initially worry too much, monitor too much, limit ourselves, and talk ourselves out of creating, when I believe that every single human being is potentially extremely creative (except me, sometimes..!). Taking it to other levels, I believe, needs self-awareness, mastering the form, gaining objectivity, etc., without losing sight of that weird little well at the bottom of the soul...

If asked, I would always say: 'Do it, do it, keep doing it.'
And writers (and everybody else, I know) need nourishment as well as criticism and instruction... all of which is on this site!

Sorry, banging on a bit.

Pete

It was Professor Joad who would be the first to say 'It all depends upon what you mean by...
When such words as 'self-aware' and 'instinctive' are used in the concept of the writer, I think it is true to say that most writers are both but to varying and individual degrees.
I am a little sceptical when reading such descriptions of the MA Course for it seems to be an attempt to introduce a division that is somehow related to 'academic quality'. Again we are faced with what these words may mean.

I think it would be true to say that one does read work that reflects an awareness of structure, grammar, pace and ability to hold the reader. Other written works often depend upon highly-charged subject matter, strong emotive phrasing and character descriptions to hold the reader.
There is no point in saying one is 'better writing' than the other and, in truth, most writers produce work that combines all these ingredients. Therefore I think it is also pointless to form two opposing camps and in trying to decide which camp one supports.

Nevertheless I do feel that a Course that encourages the craft of writing, a developing of critical abilities and an awareness of 'quality' of written work would be of great help to many. This is my definition of 'self-aware'.

Len

That's a very damaging distinction to draw; I totally agree with you; all good work has a balance of the two aspect. Very simply, certainly with poetry, I find that there's an initial instinctive outpouring of images and words, which I then, in a self-aware process, try to shape and hone as best I can while trying to retain the feeling of the initial inspiration........For these people to suggest two separate 'schools' of writing is simply idiotic, and potentially damaging.
It's the old inspiration/perspiration equation that makes for good writing.

Mike

I don't know the answer, but I notice that some universities specify that candidates have a complimentary first degree, English, or could be American/French etc literature, as well as a portfolio of work.
This suggests to me that they are looking for people with writing ability [u]and[/u] who have read widely and are used to, and have an affinity for, literary criticism. Many people have a dislike of "pinning the butterfly" and disecting it to see how and why it works.
The danger is in attributing value judgements to instinctive vs self-aware writing. You need both surely?
Regards
Bill

I've just had a look at that site and I think it explains itself clearly. If I had the time I would love to do an MA. I'm at the stage now where I am becoming more and more interested in learning the tools of the trade; I want a better understanding of the rules of English. It's only when I understand the rules that I can intentionally flex them.

Since I have started reading more about how to write English (rather than concentrating on writing stories) I am starting to recognise the importance of structure. I never thought about about this before because I didn't realise that some writers put as much thought into how they write as what they right.

It must be like learning any skill. Typing is hard to learn, but once you can type you don't think about pressing the keys at all: you just think about the words. When you learn to drive you are very aware of the controls of the car. Once you can drive you only think about the driving.

So my feeling is that if I put the work in to become a more self aware writer, the things that I have to think about now will eventually become as instinctive as the story. Working on one will improve and amplify the other.

Or is that just bollocks?

Colin M

<Added>

See - if I was a bit more self aware I wouldn't have done the silly boob in that second para. Doh!!

Colin --

I don't think you were a silly boob in the second paragraph. And I think that I feel the same way that you do.

It's weird, because I had always been a good student, but I can't say that I had ever really read with appreciation for what the writer was doing / achieving until only a few years ago. I was dossing in North London. I had been travelling, and returned to London with £75, no job and no home. This very nice stranger who answered my plea on the internet(!) let me set up a pallet on her floor, where I slept for about a week until I got things together enough to come out to Cornwall.

We talked a lot, and one thing she said that really impressed me was that she never books that she couldn't learn from. I guess it's a matter of interpretation, as you can learn something from any book, but I took it to mean reading with awareness.

Which is one step removed from writing with awareness. I have a long way to go in developing my observation skills as a reader, but so much further along than I was before. This has opened a whole world, in a way. And I want more! Like you.

Still, I felt a bit miffed while reading through the UAE site, because here I have been, also trying to 'let myself go (which I am not very good at, and very proud of when I achieve!), and here's this site which, to me, came across as saying 'We don't want those types.'

That doesn't mean I wouldn't grovel to go there! But my academic work (BA & MA) is in international politics! So I guess I've got a long journey to even prepare myself to make an application there.

Ani

Print out this thread and include it in your application. You never know, you might be just what they are looking for. My wife is going to university in September on a course that she never thought she had a chance of getting on, mainly because there were so many more applicants with better academic qualifications, also because there were only a handful of places available. But she got on. A lecturer friend of ours told me that the people who run that course aren't after the best educated, or anyone who can prove that they can do the course without batting an eyelid. They want people who might have to work to get through the course, but their desire to do the work is so much that the learning curve won't pose a problem.

or summit like that

let us know if you apply.

Colin M

Ani,

I doubt you would have any problem getting on the course you want. But maybe this is not the course you want! Lots of universities run these courses and it may be that you could "remote learn" if the geography is wrong.
I was told by a poet/head of university English department that if I wanted to continue with my poetry the last thing I should do was to study English at university. My point is that he was of the instinctive school.

Why not contact the university and speak to one of the lecturers - I am sure they would be happy to talk to you.

Regards
Bill