Are all copy editors the same? Does it really matter which one you choose?

I know a copy editor who lives within driving distance of my home, but I have no idea if he/she is any good. How does one rate them, or check them out? This one near me wants 5.00 US dollars for each double spaced page of script. For a complete book, that is going to be costly.

Just what should a writer expect from a copy editor? What happens if you draw a bad one and do not even know it?

Has anyone here had a bad experience with a copy editor?

Since I have never used a copy editors service, I am totally in the dark, as to how to find a good one, or what to expect in the way of service.

Any input would be helpful. Especially, any bad experiences, so I (and others reading this) would know what to avoid.

I wish to apologize to all professional copy editors for posting this question. I know it sounds negative, but those of us who have never used your services know nothing about it, and have no way to separate the professionals from the amateurs.

Thank you
Azel

Azel, copy-editing is a stage which happens when the book's been bought by a publisher, and they pay for it. Generally speaking it's enough preparation for you to get your manuscript as good as you can by yourself, and send it out.

It isn't usual for a writer to pay for copy-editing before submitting their manuscript to agents and/or publishers, unless they're really nervous about their grammar and how they spell and punctuate. Judging by your posts on WW you really don't need worry about these things at all. As you say, it's very expensive, because it's incredibly detailed. A good copy-editor can only do 5-6 pages an hour, checking things that hopefully you got right anyway, and really don't need doing at this stage if you didn't: continuity slips, accurate dates and places, spelling of foreign language words. (For example, I remember my copy-editor spending ages trying to find out if a certain chain of record stores did exist in the month my novel was set!).

And what a copy-editor doesn't really do is deal with structure, characterisation, plot, dialogue, the quality of the writing and so on, unless they happen to notice an issue in passing. Those are the things that will sell your book to an agent and hopefully then a publisher, so those are what you need to concentrate on. If you feel that your work does need someone else's eye before you send it out, beyond posting things on WW or getting a writing friend to look it over, then what you need is an editorial service. They're not cheap either, though I think they're cheaper than copy-editing and will pick up some of the same issues if they spot them. Most of the services will alternatively do a short read of three chapters or so of the book, which is much cheaper, and which can give good pointers towards what still needs work, and how you should pitch it when you do start sending it out. I don't know which country you're in, but in the UK a full read and a 3-4,000 word report on a full-length adult novel is around £4-500, I think, but they all have prices on their websites. Some of the major services you could look at are The Literary Consultancy, Cornerstones, Hilary Johnson, and Writers Workshop. (I should mention that I do reports for Writers Workshop.)

Emma

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Meant to say, all those services take manuscripts from abroad, so don't let that put you off!

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There's a new thread in the Private Members forum on editorial services, which you might like to look at if you have access there.

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As to good and bad ones, it can be quite subjective - some are very bossy, and have strict ideas about 'correct' punctuation, say, which you may not agree with in the context of the voices of your novel. My limited experience is that US copy-editors are much more inclined to be like this. Others may be slipshod (or very, very tired - it's hard, concentrated work and not easy to do enough to earn a decent living) and miss things. In the UK there's a professional association of proof-readers and copy-editors, all of whose members should do a good job. I don't have a link, but googling should pick them up. One thing that's important is to talk to them, and establish what you want them to do, and how they work.

Thank you Emma for the long response. I am self publishing (not vanity publishing). I will be using one of the print-on-demand (only) printers, for a limited short run of book. This is why I am going to pay for the copy editing myself.

At the present, I am only on chapter seven in my revising of the first draft. It will probably be at least a year till I need a copy editor. The copy editor is on my mind a lot during my revising because I run into times when I don’t know (or am not sure) about the proper sentence structure or punctuation. It happens about once each page, and I always tell myself, ‘I will leave it to the copy editor.’

This usually happens when I have a sentence that I ‘like’ the way it is written, and don’t want to change it, yet, I can’t seem to make it fit proper grammar rules. When I am writing dialogue, I break the grammar rules, but when writing narrative I try to stay within proper grammar rules. This happens most often when I add a phrase to the main clause, but don’t have a proper way to fit it in the sentence. When this happens I often type in a semicolon, but this is incorrect. A semicolon is supposed to connect complete clauses only, not phrases. Sometime I change the semicolon to a dash, but I don’t like the dash as well. It’s too abrupt. Anyway, these are times I wish I had a copy editor at my desk to help me. I would post these, but that are too many. I find at least one on each page.

Enough for now.

I hated revising when I first started, but I am finding it more interesting now that I am getting deeper into the first draft. I am now writing the book, I thought I was writing during my first draft.

Thanks
Azel

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what country? USA, Texas, Abilene

Ah, yes, if you're self-publishing that makes complete sense, and getting it copy-edited is a very necessary stage which far too many self-publishers, unlike you, don't realise is essential.

Emma

I went via a PoD path too (btw; I believe that PoD and self publishing should be split as they have slightly different approaches. PoD is generally not full self publishing although depending on the packages used it can be pretty close)

I learned a lot from my first book which went through one edit and three proof readings and which still needs to go through additional editing and proofing.

For book two, in an effort to keep costs down I took a different apporach which seems to have worked very well for me.

With regards editing I swapped manuscripts and worked with three other writers during the creation process (one of whom has editing experience). This was one on a tit for tat basis and worked well. It actually provided for not only some basic editing, but some proof reading and copy editing too.
You need to pick your comrades carefully though as you don't want someone who will back out on working on your manuscript after you have done theirs.

I then made the decision to add about three months to the publication process and put book two through ten sets of proof reading and copy editing IN SERIES (ie; one after the other - hence the long delay). The result was that book two is pretty 'solid' and a much more professional product than book one was when first launched.
None of the readers were paid and all were keen to be involved in the creation process and as a thank you I gave them a copy of the book once published and mentioned them in a thank you note at the start of the book.
(Your own grammar needs to be good to take this approach though as you will find many who differ on their use of abbreviations)

Of course, if you have the funds available to pay for these services then great, but beware, I have seen a number of novels and manuscripts that have been through 'paid' services which are still littered with errors and poor grammar/punctuation.

Others may have a different opinion on this subject, but this approach has worked for me although I did learn the hard way via publication of my first novel and the need to run a second revision pretty soon afterwards.

Good luck.

taff

There are some terms (words) that I have used which seem to cause confusion with the readers. Perhaps I need to find out their general meaning.

Often, I use the word revision. Some of you call it revising.
Doesn’t it mean the same thing?

What about revison and re-write? Different?

The terms (words) used for self publishing has also caused some confusion in my posts.
I am paying to have my book copyedited. I will pay a printer to print copies of my book. I will also take care of distributing my book. I am not using any ‘book service’ company to print or distribute.
So what are the different terms (words) used for self publishing, and what are their differences? For example, what does PoD mean?

What is the difference between copyediting and proof reading? Who does proof reading and what does it cover?


Thanks
Azel

The worst experience I've had with a copy editor was during the pre-publication edit of Practical Devil Worship. I had to explain that 'pissant' actually is an American profanity, and that some of the dialect was Texan and not spelling mistakes. I began to wonder whether they really 'got' my story or not, but I fought tooth and nail to preserve its tone and refused to drop the 'bending over for Jesus' comment.

JB

Gotta love these definitions.
This is how it was explained to me:-


Editing: reviewing and changing a document by making additions, deletions, or other changes to conform to some agreed-upon standard or project requirement. So someone who is really going to look at whether you are hitting the right notes for your market genre and being consistent in your quality as well as being part of the creation process.

Copy editing: Finding and eliminating grammatical, spelling or similar errors, and checking for style conformity.

Proofreading: reading a proof copy of text for the purpose of detecting errors. A proof copy is a manuscript after copy editing has been performed.

So essentially from my viewpoint the team of 'readers' that I had were really copy editing and the final check before publishing was a proof read. (so I guess I was the proof reader using these terms as I was the one that made all the changes and finalised the proof copy for publication).



With regards PoD v Self Publishing.
The line between the two can be murky.
I look at full self publishing as someone who has handled EVERYTHING themselves. From manuscript formatting through to printing, marketing and distribution.
I am a PoD published author. I use a PoD company (Discovered Authors/Booksurge) to format my manuscript and produce a high quality paperback/hardback. I then use their services to add my work online and I receive a royalty for any online sales. In addition they handle distribution of my work to wholesalers in the UK and the US.

In Uk I also use my PoD for printing copies of my work at author discount which I then sell on direct as signed copies. (Note: I do not have to do this though - I could use another print service for my books if I wanted to do so, but my PoD gives me a good unit price so I don't need to).

As I say the line is murky as PoD companies continue to offer various packages from simply printing for a 'self published author' to the more inclusive model similar to the one that I use.

I think it is common to refer to PoD published authors as self publishers, but, in truth, they may not be in the strictest sense of the definition.

Clear as mud huh :-) LOL


taff

I’m from Texas. ‘pissant' is a mild insult. It means the person is nothing but a insignificant little annoying black ant. It might be used like this:

“I can’t stand being near the guy, he’s nothing but a pissant.”

It’s not used much anymore here in Texas. At least, I don’t hear it being used any more. The world media, tv, internet, has had the effect of making everyone talk alike, using the same words. There is still the Texas accent, but many colorful words, like ‘pissant’, are slowly disappearing from the Texas vocabulary. I guess in a few more hundred years all these locally used words, in different countries, will disappear from use.

Azel

Yeah, well, I just got it off the telly.

JB

Azel

My husband is an American actor, living in the Uk, who does copy editing on-line for a Washington based brokerage company and, although he is paid by the hour, he thinks it would work out to about $5.00 a page, so your editor is probably not overcharging you.

If any WW members need a manuscript prepared for submission to US agents/publishers, my husband does accept free lance work. Punctuation and grammar is very different in the US, much more formal. As my husband has taught composition in US universities, he is about as expert as you can get (he can talk for hours about the use of hypens, and don't even get him started on the comma!) He does my manuscripts and I can testify that he is incredibly meticulous.

Hilary

Hilary, yours sounds like a very useful husband to have.

And I can testify from my own experience that US copy-editing standards are quite different. I don't know if it would get your MS turned down if it was UK-ish in spelling and comma habits (oh yes, very different) - US publishers are quite used to us, even if US readers aren't. But a UK writer who's aiming mainly for US publishers might be well-advised to do the spadework for them.

Azel, 'PoD', really, is simply the name of the technology, made possible by computerisation, that produces books singly, rather than in batches. This system of producing books is used by self-publishers via firms who own the machines, by those firms, by traditional printers for small runs, by small presses, by vanity presses, and I think will soon be used in bookshops so that they are the 'storefront' for whole catalogues.

Of course a firm which sells its PoD services is likely to expand its service into other areas like design, copy-editing, warehousing (though of course the whole point of PoD is to eliminate this), distribution and so on. Some or all of these services are things someone self-publishing might want to draw on, but fundamentally the self-publisher is still in control.

Emma