Blimey. My internet was down for a day, I come back and, what's this? THREE PAGES about endings...? Oh no, my mistake, it's the old literary/commercial argument again! But actually a very interesting one....

Can I just say to Snowy, also completely irrelevently: Middlemarch!

And to JB that I love the idea of your book which begins with The End and ends with The Beginning. Maybe I need to put aside my reading prejudices and read something in a genre which (unlike crime, chick fic and historical romance) I never normally visit - just to discover the truth of there being well-crafted books in every genre!

Rosy

Thanks for your nice msg, Snowy.

I suppose you talked of beach reads and then were extrapolating to "genre" fiction

I don't actually think I did. I made a specific comment about 'beach reads' to make a point, and I don't think I allied it to genre fiction in any way. I think you inferred that. I did contrast a beach read with something more literary, so perhaps you assumed that I was putting everything in one or the other basket. But I wasn't - I was talking about extremes.

Not arguing, just wanted to make that clear, because I do think I've been very misconstrued, and I know you won't hold it against me, but perhaps others are. No-one except you has responded to my msgs after Emma bowed out. Maybe everything now thinks I'm a monster!!

I do feel that there is a lot of touchiness surrounding this subject, and sadly it inhibits genuine debate which is not prejudiced.

As for me not knowing my subject before dissing genre fiction, that's not entirely true. When I was younger I used to read all sorts of things, but at some point got fed up with reading fiction which uses language in a less than beautiful way. Plot might be great, but if I don't get pleasure from the language then I won't read on. So I will still browse a variety of books, but if I read the first page and it's written in a style which doesn't give me pleasure then I won't read it.

For me, this is important - I'd rather have beautiful writing than a page-turning plot. But I realise many people feel differently - they are primarily interested in a great story. We're all different. That was what I was trying to say.

So there are different ways to be a really good writer, and those different ways of being really good suit different sub-genres IMO. Yes, in many genres you get a variety of writing styles.

I don't expect you to respond since I know you've had enough of this, but because of what you said about me appearing prejudiced I just wanted to explain why I don't believe I am.

Deb

Deb. I think we're both a bit paranoid after that big fall-out! I am absolutely sure that everyone thinks you're very nice and not a monster at all. You aren't ever horrible to anyone.

Ever since that big bust-up I have been emailing various people going "have I offended?" "have I offended?" in an incredibly neurotic way!! Your message made me laugh this morning because it is reminding me of how I am feeling.

Let's agree neither of us are monsters. We're just - what I described to Naomi as - terriers. We neither of us like to let go of a good argument

I think it's the weather, myself.

<Added>

Ok. I don't think you are prejudiced. But i think an argument just based on generalisation without examples can look so...

The language thing - aggh - there are plenty of examples of beautiful use of language in different genres: I would say Raymond Chandler (detective), Gormenghast (fantasy), Hitchhikers (comedy) all examples of fine and very controlled use of language in very very different ways...

Terrier, see?

hehehe

terriers. We neither of us like to let go of a good argument

That made me laugh. I think you're sooo right!

Oh, I totally agree that genre fiction can be written in beautiful language. Never said otherwise... (see, terrier!!) I guess what I was saying was that, for me personally, beautiful language has to be there for me to enjoy it. Everything else is optional - plot, genre, etc.

But I wasn't trying to make the point about my own tastes - that's of no interest to anyone but me. My point was that different people have different tastes, so different sub-genres reflect that (I won't say genres, because genre implies something specific and I agree there are many styles within one genre).

And of course, every novel is an individual, with rights and... oh, that's people, innit?

But every novel has its own mix of beautiful language, cliche, strong plot, in-depth characterisation, neat endings/vague endings.... The boxes are only approximate and they all vary in all these respects.

IKWYM about feeling paranoid after the big spat. I wasn't involved in it but there has been a bit of an atmosphere since. I think it's receding now, thank goodness.

The best is yet to come....

Deb

<Added>

And definitely, neither of us are monsters. We're lovely, cuddly terriers, who just won't let go of the rope we're tugging at, but we're panting happily and wagging our tails... ;)

Woof!

Hi

I completed the end of my novel before I started writing the chapters. It was the most powerful part of the novel with a 'twist' that i wanted to have impact right at the very end, so I kind of started at the end!

I like to have the end goal in mind, it reminds me where i want it to finish in case i get sidetracked along the way.

Paula

I'm the exact opposite - the ending is the only bit which I haven't worked out in advance. I want to let the characters decide what happens...

Deb

Like Paula, I have to have an ending to aim for. Not all the characters will make it, and it may not be the very last chapter, but at least it tells me when to stop.

- NaomiM

Not all the characters will make it

LOL! I love that.

Having started all my thinking with the opening moment that kicks off the MC's change, I know how I want to resolve its emotional side. But sometimes I've no idea where or how, or how that will manifest itself in plot or physical terms. Other times I do know fairly clearly - a vision, if you like, as the beginning is a vision - in which case its a case of planning the stages in between.

Emma

IKWYM, Emma, about the vision thing. All my writing comes to me in visions, really. It's the only way I can really be creative. Trouble is, it can take a while to squeeze out all the visions I need...

Deb

crime, chick fic and historical romance

Unrequited isn't genre fiction. It encapsulates (lovin' that word today for some reason) crime, romance and I guess the modern homosexual version of chick fic to an extent.

Lord knows what readers of my other stuff will make of it, and Lord knows if I've got the time-fluxing thing right. Now, I think as a first novel it's highly ambitious, and I personally don't think it's quite spot on, but stuff it.

In terms of endings, I like the rule 'in quick, out early'. I love an ending that dangles. It allows the imagination of the reader to breathe.
I can think of a couple of authors who just can't do endings, but I'm not in the mood to point them out from the bookshelf.

JB



<Added>

IKWYM

Come again? ;)

JB, IKWYM = I know what you mean.

See, I'm a nerd... And now everyone thinks I'm mad cos I'm talking about visions.

Deb

Not at all. Why, it was a vision of Jesus at the foot of my bed that urged me to begin my Biblical epic.

JB

Deb I understand. i can't write anything unless something like a vision/scene pops into my head, often sparked by a word or an action.
It can be hell waiting for that to happen.

Twiddling thumbs here,

- NaomiM