I need to go through that at leaisure, but thanks.

The upshot with regard to my original question seems to be that I should abandon 'were', unless the tone's very formal. So that's something I need to discuss with my editor.

Yes, alas I am a touch over 35!

Ok, have read the page! Now I have another question: what's the difference, Luisa, between a tense and a mood?

I know lots of linguists who are under 35 who would willingly discuss all this!

Lammi, I'll write this briefly and hope it makes sense.

Tense refers to the time the action in the verb occurs, the 'when' of the verb. (Past, present, future...)

Mood is the attitude of the speaker to the verb, e.g. certainty, possibility, command. (Indicative, conditional, subjunctive, imperative.)

Then there's voice, which is the relation the verb bears to its subject. (Active, passive.)

I can write more later - I've got to go!

Luisa

So is the conditional a mood or a tense? I'm curious if it isn't, as to why, since both the conditional and the subjunctive seem to express the same kind of uncertainty.

<Added>

I mean, I'm curious if the subjunctive is a mood and the conditional is a tense.

Sorry Luisa, no offence intended. It was just based on my own experience.

No offence taken! I hope I didn't give the impression of offence! Out of curiosity, were you suggesting this because of the way grammar used to be taught in schools?

Lammi, the conditional is a mood too.

I never knew that, Luisa. Thanks. I'm sure I've seen it referred to in A level course books as a tense, but what I used to find when I taught A level Language was that the terminology was shifting all the time, and the names I'd learned at school (mainly through studying Latin rather than in English lessons) were no longer recognised.

Hi Luisa, I think it's my experience of running an English department many years ago- even fellow staff had problems and I recall an 'A' level student who couldn't spell February- and lecturing in academic writing to university students who had no idea of basic grammar (and don't get me started on apostrophes!)
I believe too there was a period in British education where the emphasis was on students expressing themselves, without feeling inhibited by grammar, punctuation and spelling.
Like you Lammi, I learnt my grammar through studying Latin and French, rather than in English lessons.
Sorry, I sound like a real snob here and, truthfully, there are many areas of grammar with which I'm not familiar myself.
I sincerely meant it when I said how refreshing it was to join your thread and am so glad you're not offended by my ageist comment!

there was a period in British education where the emphasis was on students expressing themselves, without feeling inhibited by grammar, punctuation and spelling

That's the period when I went to school! There's a lot to be said for that approach, in my opinion. It didn't stop me being fascinated by language and grammar.

Lammi, there is a sense in which the conditional is a tense - it can be used to show "future in the past".

Also, books that teach grammar often simplify the terms.

Lammi, there is a sense in which the conditional is a tense - it can be used to show "future in the past".

I feel I should ask more, but my head is hurting!

Please forgive me if I've missed a lot of this thread, but I saw the title and couldn't help posting! I teach French and I can't believe how the members of the English Department in my school have little grasp of grammar! I frequently hear "he told Sarah and I", etc. The pinnacle was when we were on a 'Behaviour Management' course and the very expensive 'facilitator' handed out a paper which read "How to diffuse a situation". I couldn't help myself and pointed out the error to the Head of English. She asked me, "So what do you want to do - have a single 'f'?" The word was the wrong one! She didn't believe me; she frantically searched for a dictionary!

The mis-use of who and whom and, similarly the mis-use of only get me going!!

joanie

Until a few years ago I made that same error, till I took an online spelling test and was enlightened. Whoops! But it's an understandable mistake, really: you're mis-hearing an implied metaphor, and substituting another that makes prefect sense. Bomb or nasty cloud? Either would work, in the context.

To go back to the original question, I always use 'whom' as the object form in narrative - though obviously not in dialogue, nor in what is very clearly subjective POV internal monologue embedded within narrative, unless the person is especially pompous/well educated/formal). Ditto with subjunctives, which I always use in narrative where they 'ought' to be used, according to traditional grammar. And the possessive form for things like 'he said nothing about my going out' (as opposed to me going...'. And I don't use contrcations, shortening 'did not' to 'didn't', etc., either.

I personally don't think these things stick out. These little words are invisible, I reckon. You don't notice them if you're reading an older book, when all grammar followed the rules, do you? BUT it does depend on your narrative voice, I think. (Maybe what others have meant by 'register'?) If a book is all in first person, or deeply embedded third person POV, so that all narrative comes from inside a character's head, then more informal language is more appropriate, perhaps. I tend to use third party omniscient/authorial voice, so formal grammar is a better 'fit'.

Rosy

Yes, you're right, Rosy; personal style is yet another element to factor in. I don't use contractions much either in my straight narrative, and like you, I always preserve the verbal noun phrase (is that a gerundive, Luisa, the 'your going' construction?).

By 'register' here I mean level of poshness. So low register would be lots of slang and colloquialisms and non-standard dialect, while high register would be lots of longer, Latinate words and generally formal expression. The difference between:
How dare you call me a f***ing liar!
and
Have you the audacity to doubt my veracity and insinuate that I prevaricate?

Definitely who rather than whom for a story Lan, for me anyhow.
It reads far more easily, I suspect because of the effect of its increasing colloquial usage.