They're an inexact science, but I'd be interested to know which set people thought were the better versions:


1.

A. Jackson, she knew, regarded her as a loose cannon and no matter how impressive her exam results were, he didn't want anyone on his senior management team speaking frankly about her mother's cannabis use.

B. Jackson, she knew, regarded her as a loose cannon, and no matter how impressive her exam results were, he didn't want anyone on his senior management team speaking frankly about her mother's cannabis use.



2.

A. She meant to go for a long walk around the grounds but when she got to the back entrance she saw it had started to rain.

B. She meant to go for a long walk around the grounds, but when she got to the back entrance she saw it had started to rain.



3.

A. The comfy seats had been shifted round so that they were in a semicircle and someone had carried up half a dozen staging blocks from the drama department.

B. The comfy seats had been shifted round so that they were in a semicircle, and someone had carried up half a dozen staging blocks from the drama department.



Basically the Bs all have a comma inserted. I've read and read these sentences to the point where I just can't see them any more. Yoru views are appreciated!

Hmm. I don't think you'd have a copy-editor dying of horror with any of these options, but here goes

1.

A. Jackson, she knew, regarded her as a loose cannon and no matter how impressive her exam results were, he didn't want anyone on his senior management team speaking frankly about her mother's cannabis use.

B. Jackson, she knew, regarded her as a loose cannon, and no matter how impressive her exam results were, he didn't want anyone on his senior management team speaking frankly about her mother's cannabis use.

I think B, because after 'cannon' is a sort of 'furthermore' to the sentence, rather as if you'd used a colon, and cut the 'and'.

Unhelpfully, just to confuse things, my american copy-editor would try to insist on the truly, traditionally correct version, which almost only ever uses commas in pairs, parenthetically:

C. Jackson, she knew, regarded her as a loose cannon and, no matter how impressive her exam results were, he didn't want anyone on his senior management team speaking frankly about her mother's cannabis use.

2.

A. She meant to go for a long walk around the grounds but when she got to the back entrance she saw it had started to rain.

B. She meant to go for a long walk around the grounds, but when she got to the back entrance she saw it had started to rain.

Either is fine, I think. A is more correct by the rules, B reflects how you'd read it. My tendency would be B, but then reading aloud influences how I punctuate enormously.

3.

A. The comfy seats had been shifted round so that they were in a semicircle and someone had carried up half a dozen staging blocks from the drama department.

B. The comfy seats had been shifted round so that they were in a semicircle, and someone had carried up half a dozen staging blocks from the drama department.

I think B. articulates (in the proper sense of giving joints to) the two halves of this particular sentence. I think it might even be correct, in the technical sense, in that the two halves are less dependant on each other than in 2.

Don't know if that helps - hope it does!

Emma

Just for the record, you could be super-traditional with 2, I realise now, but even more than with 1 I think it's out of place in a colloquial fictional voice.

B. She meant to go for a long walk around the grounds but, when she got to the back entrance, she saw it had started to rain.

Sorry!

Great, thanks! Can you bear to look at one more?

4.
A. Just as she was about to give up she walked past the art room and was astonished to see Kali in there, overalls on, hair tied back.

B. Just as she was about to give up she walked past the art room, and was astonished to see Kali in there, overalls on, hair tied back.

Again, I suspect A is more correct, and actually here I think it works better, because you don't actually want a tiny pause before 'and' if you're trying to convey the sudden interruption of her surprise.

Emma

The headmaster of my primary school told us never to put a comma before 'and'. According to Lynne Truss (awfully good on commas) this is the Oxford or serial comma - standard in American English, but less common elsewhere.

Frances

I realised writing TMOL that my two characters punctuated quite differently, and that made me realise that 'correct' becomes a very different thing in creative writing, because the voice is crucial, whereas in other kinds of writing the crucial thing is to make the meaning clear, which usually means following standard practice.

Must actually get hold of Lynn Truss.

Emma

I thought that, unless you need it for specific demarcation purposes or for some special effect, you didn't need commas before conjuctions. But that rule seems to be well out these days, Frances.

My copy editor's brilliant and very approachable, so I'll be talking these and other issues through with him. Thanks for your input.

Serial commas are used in lists, but using a comma before a conjuction isn't necessarily the same thing. (See, I just did it there!)

In US English this is correct:
"I bought apples, pears, and oranges."

In UK English that's incorrect and it should be:
"I used apples, pears and oranges."

That's a serial comma example.

Here we're talking about commas before subordinate clauses. Technically, you're not supposed to use them, but I agree with Emma when she said

'correct' becomes a very different thing in creative writing

. We 'break' all kinds of writing 'rules' - that's our job.

I agree with all of Emma's suggestions above, too!

And I sometimes disagree strongly with Lynn Truss...

Luisa

I tell you, I'm still going round in circles with it. I now no longer have the ability to read or understand anything I've written.

Don't worry! Maybe you need a break?

Sending sympathy,

Luisa

Can't afford a break!

I've a similar situation with run-on sentences. I spent my time as a teacher blitzing the little beggars, but as a writer I do like to drop one into a story from time to time to indicate either a train of thought rushing out, or to catch the rhythm of someone speaking (because people don't speak in grammatically neat sentences and sometimes I want that tail-off effect).

If we're talking grammar/punctuation, we pretty much are talking rules, hurrah. Am I allowed to break them? We'll see...

I think the rule (!) is that you're allowed to break any rule as long as you know you're doing it...

Serial commas are used in lists, but using a comma before a conjuction isn't necessarily the same thing. (See, I just did it there!) In US English this is correct: "I bought apples, pears, and oranges." In UK English that's incorrect and it should be: "I used apples, pears and oranges."

Yes, I came across this when TMOL was being (very lightly) americanised: I was taught the UK way, and it looks odd to me

But again, I'd break it for something like this:

"We operate on cats and kittens, dogs, horses, fish and shellfish, insects, and elephants'

Sorry, not a very good example - what I'm getting at is when you're using 'and' to make pairs in the list, you have to differentiate the terminal 'and' from being one of those.

Emma

<Added>

Reading David Crystal's Rediscovering Grammar made me realise JUST how different spoken is from written English.

I'm ok, I think, with commas in lists, and commas that mark off relative clauses or adverbial phrases. It's the ones before 'and' and 'but' I wasn't sure about, where 'and' and 'but' are acting as coordinating conjunctions (ie holding two independent clauses together).

I picked up a couple of novels this morning to check what other writers do in this specific case, and there doesn't seem to be a standard. It seems to be a stylistic preference.

I think the rule (!) is that you're allowed to break any rule as long as you know you're doing it...

- I'd say, with grammar and punctuation, it's that you can break any rule as long as the resulting text isn't rendered unclear. Or as long as you're not distracting the reader with the style to the point where s/he can no longer concentrate on substance.