Someone please remind me... I know that 'three year old' (for example) has hyphens ('three-year-old' either when it's used as an adjective but not when it's used as a noun, or else the other way round. But I've forgotten which is which! And can't find ity in any of my grammar/punctuation books. Anyone happen to know?

Rosy

I'd tentatively suggest it's being used as an adjective whether you write 'I took my three-year-old to the cinema' or 'I took my three-year-old daughter to have her hair cut'. The first simply omits the noun that the adjective is describing.

Usually I hyphenate words which are used together as an adjective, because they are not separate adjectives but perform as one adjective when used together.

In the case where it really is a noun I think usually not hyphenated, but as I say I don't think this is a true example of that. And I wish I could think of a true example of this to make my point.

I'm basing this on what we did when I sub-edited for two sister magazines. I did write the style guide , but my boss and I would argue and research every point we were unsure of when we put the style guide together, so it had merit.

Deb

I'd agree with deb on the general rule - hyphenating when you're joining two words together so they're operating as a single adjective. But I think Deb's right that in 'I tickled my three-year-old, there's a noun 'child' implied, so it's really still being an adjective, and is hyphenated.

It's the kind of thing a copy editor has to know, but I'm not sure you're obliged to sweat over it if the answer's not easily found.

Emma

In New Hart's Rules it gives the example of:

a two-year-old

and says use hyphens in spelled out numbers - maybe the hyphen rule you are thinking of refers to other words which aren't numbers.

Casey x

Casey, I couldn't find that in Hart - must have been looking in the wrong place.

Emma

So if Hart says 'a two-year-old' (noun, presumably) then the adjective must be when it's unhyphenated (as in 'a ten year old single malt'!)

That'll be the way round, then. Thanks! I remember my copy editor explaining it to me last time, but I suddenly couldn't remember which was which...

R x

I found it on p 181, Emma, under 'Numbers' - not given as a rule about hyphens, as such.

No, Rosy, i think what Hart's is saying is that all numbers, if spelt out, are written with hyphens - your copy-editor must have been talking about other hypenated words eg the difference between fancy dress and a fancy-dress party - or whatever - ie not numbers.

Casey

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so, to my mind, it is

a ten-year-old

and

a ten-year-old malt

Aha! Thanks Casey, and I'm sure you're right that two-year-old is hyphenated in all circumstances, whether it's a noun for a child, or is describing a whisky.

Emma

No, I found it, finally, deep in the guidance nortes my copy ed. gave me last time. (The numbers stuff, Casey means thrirty-four and sixty-eight and all that, not stuff with 'year old' in it.) It is as we thought: 'a three-year-old' but 'a three year old child'.

R x

hmm, interesting, Hart's Rules gives the example of a '33-year-old-man

I have to say, i shall follow Hart's, for me, 'three year old child' really doesn't look right.

Each to their own though

Casey


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Oops, not an actual hyphen before the word 'man'

How weird. Must be one of those optional things (like no-one and noone) so my guidance notes are just house style.

R x

Rosy, i looked into no one and it is actually no one (as far as i've been told!) - Lord, almost every thread opens up a minefield!! Maybe every copy-editor, like you say, is different and has their own little quirks - has your published book got no one, noone or no-one in it??

And tell me, why do you and i worry about the minutiae when a copy-editor will sort it out? I think many writers suffer from a perfectionist streak!

Casey x

Don't forget that some of these things are house style and vary from place to place. I've had a different set of copy-editing rules in nearly every place I've worked.

In other words we are all correct and don't need to worry about it

Casey

It is as we thought: 'a three-year-old' but 'a three year old child'

Rosy, that wasn't what I was saying... or the others I think.

difference between fancy dress and a fancy-dress party

That's the perfect example and how I see it, except that (as I said before) 'three-year-old' is not a noun but an adjective for an implied and omitted noun ('child'.

But as has been said, this is something which your editor can worry about really - more a house style thing than a black and white right or wrong.

Deb

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Dunno how that winky smiley appeared - it's in the place of simply a closed bracket! Weird.

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Oh - exactly the same happened to Rosy's original msg. Must be a bug.