I know what you mean when you describe the manuscripts you review as 'boring to read' but I think that means they're just badly written and there is no general panacea or guideline that can cure that.

'Badly written' is as unhelpful a generalisation as 'Write well', it seems to me. What kind of badly written? is the question. So I don't apply general panaceas, or general criticisms, I get down and dirty on the MS, with examples of their actual sentences which could be so much better.

what's the point of having a guideline that can't be applied in the abstract?

There isn't one. There is nothing you can say about writing that isn't context-sensitive. You may be able to group together a set of issues that have a lot in common, but as soon as you try to extract principles from that, you find there are just as many places where they can't apply.

That's where the friction in this thread started, as I recall. As you said, the more generally applicable a guideline, the less useful it is. The more precise the guideline, the more exemptions you promptly have to make, and if you don't, you restrict your writing to a kind of lowest-common-denominator of competence.

Okay, I've said this at least twice, earlier, but it bears repeating.

A guideline is no use if you don't understand the complicated set of ideas and effects it refers to. It's like learning to chant the multiplication table without knowing the maths it represents.

And when you do understand them, it should still be a matter of a quick way of referring to the possibilities, not a prescription.

Emma

I've been thinking, the very last people who need to be presented with a set of rules are beginners, because they have no context into which to put those rules. (Unless they're big readers, in which case they'd spot a dozen exceptions to each one immediately.)

I agree.

Since there's nothing you can say about writing that isn't context-sensitive, you can't explain, let alone apply, rules without a context. If they don't read, and haven't yet written much they haven't got that context. In saying you need a context you're admitting that there will be times the rules don't apply. In which case you're actually saying they're not rules after all.

Emma

'Badly written' is as unhelpful a generalisation as 'Write well', it seems to me.

Absolutely agree, Emma, totally unhelpful and useless. But my point is that ALL generalisations are useless and that only specific feedback is useful.

Kate, so do you think that generalised rules or guidelines (ie ones that are not applied to a specific novel or context) are useful to more experienced writers then?

<Added>

cross-posted with Emma.

This conversation started off with the assumption that there are certain rules/conventions/guidelines (whatever the word) for fiction-writing that writers should study and apply before venturing to break them.

These is a totally different kettle of fish from specific feedback which is an individual reader's personal reaction to a piece of writing.

The questions are:

Do these rules/guidelines exist?
Are they useful?
Why are they there?

my point is that ALL generalisations are useless and that only specific feedback is useful.

I think this is true but, with the proviso that you and the writer both know what you mean by them, it's very efficient to have some labels for the technical issues you hope you both understand, and which you want to use to illuminate your feedback.

You should see my paragraph explaining showing and telling to writers who - demonstrably - have never heard of the concept. It's long, and it's still only part of it. By contrast, it's great to be able to say to an experienced writer, 'I think this scene's needs to be entirely show-y, because otherwise we won't really feel this character's change of heart.' Or, alternatively, 'D'you think this might work better as a tell? We need to know it, but the actual events aren't central to the plot, and to have a whole scene dissipates the tension you've just built up.' Or whatever.

Emma

Hmm, maybe that's true, I just haven't been in that kind of context so I can't tell how useful it would be to me as a writer. Does your agent or editor ever use those kind of terms, the 'guideline shorthand' to explain what they feel you should change about your novels?

Does your agent or editor ever use those kind of terms, the 'guideline shorthand' to explain what they feel you should change about your novels?

On the whole, no, they're up a level of generalising even from that: 'I don't think Fergus works' or 'I didn't believe in her reason for the journey' or 'You need to make the vase more of a totem' and it's up to me how to do it. The kind of thing which baffles beginners, in short.

My editor at the line-editing stage might say, 'I think this is very flat' or 'this goes on too long' or 'this is confusing,' but in my limited experience even editors don't talk CW terminology - it's still my job to go down a level to work out that it's flat because tell's the wrong thing here, or 'too long' means too many words not earning their keep or 'confusing' because my PoV's got in a muddle. Or whatever. And then go down a level more to the actual words.

Emma

I wonder if I should have prefaced the central tenet of my intial post with 'in my view'?

Just as, I think, the opposing views ought to be prefaced with 'in my view'..

I have a whole collection of well respected craft/process books... some chime with me more than others. But despite how well I 'get along with' the ideas of the wroiters, its funny how the same advice to beginners crops up in many of them, across many divides.





Vanessa

I suppose you could call me a beginner but that's exactly the kind of feedback I get from my trusted readers (who generally know nothing about fiction writing but read a lot of it) and it's exactly the kind of feedback that makes sense to me. (except for the totem, you kind of lost me on that one).

For me 'this goes on too long' is way more useful than 'all these words aren't earning their keep'. 'I don't think Fergus works' couldn't be clearer, I don't know how anyone could be baffled by that.

Sorry Emma, I don't mean to beat this point to death but I do wonder why you think these guidelines might be useful to your students if you don't find them useful for yourself.

<Added>

cross-posted with Vanessa.
Why do you think we need to preface all our posts with 'In my view'? I kind of thought that was obvious.

Because I wondered if I was coming over as didactic... whereas I am saying that guidelines helped me as a writer...


so 'in my view, guidelines are useful, and have worked, in that listening and adhering to things I only learned after studying writing have improved my writing'....as opposed to 'V is saying that all writers have to have guidelines'

?

vanessa

Kate, so do you think that generalised rules or guidelines (ie ones that are not applied to a specific novel or context) are useful to more experienced writers then?

- I can't think of many generalised guidelines that are much practical use to anyone, Ashlinn, because the more general the rules get the more self-evident they become. The best come in the form of questions, such as 'Who is telling your story?' and 'In what order do you want to tell events/Where do you want the story to start?' and 'How far do you want your narrative voice to reflect the voice of your mc?' Are those guidelines? Elements to consider, anyway, and you can ask them at any level, and answer them whether or not you know the CW terminology.

It's reminded me that I did some research last year for an article on this subject. I'll see if I can find responses I got from the writers I asked.

The article was about craft books and I asked Julie Myerson whether she'd found any that were helpful. I'm sure it's ok to reproduce here as the text appeared in a magazine a while ago:

no i never read or book or did a writing course in my life. i just started writing poetry at 9 and was halfway through a (dreadful, incredibly Daphne du Maurier inspired) novel at 13.... i think i got my inspiration from writing fan letters to poor beleaguered famous writers (including Du Maurier who wrote back regularly poor woman) telling them I was Going to Be An Author and asking for advice. I really feel there's no way of teaching creative writing. all you can do is give someone that great feeling that comes of having your work read by another person who's passionate about writing. meanwhile i always tell aspiring writers to read and read and read. (I don't think there's anything wrong with imitating other literary voices till you manage to find your own)

Ooo, I'm here again...(spooky)

I do think this thread is a little unfair to Nessie here. I am the last person, as you know, to embrace the term "rule". But I think she has listed helpful advice and teaching she received, she obviously thinks it has helped her writing and she also has had the confidence to pick and choose amongst the guidelines/advice given. I don't think that is a bad thing to suggest to any reader, is it? Reading can give you rhythm and understanding and feel, but sometimes it is hard to break down what you consciously feel as a reader in order to construct it yourself in a novel. Particularly aspects like build and story and drama and climax are very very hard to work out cold.

I, for one, think it would be interesting to discuss some of the ideas that Nessie is talking about - not as hard and fast rules but as interesting techniques to try out and help thought. I do feel that maybe her experience is being trodden under foot a little. (I don't mean in an aggressive way - just that what she is saying and what her experience is has been lost in the argument about the use of the word "rule" - which I was arguing with, for that matter, but I think she hasn't been given much opportunity to develop the interesting side of this.) I mean, I agree that I don't like this notion of "rules". On the other hand, we all want to help each other and discuss techniques and get tips, don't we? Isn't that why we are on a writing site (err..in ghost form...)





<Added>

Sorry I meant - that's not a bad thing to suggest to any new writer, rather than reader

Yes, that's clearer, Vanessa. It looks like a lot of writers don't use anything like a set of rules, but some do, and I've always said there are as many approaches to writing as there are writers.

My argument's always been that an over-prescriptive approach*, especially coming early on, runs the risk of ruining a writer's instinct. It can also seriously mess them up as readers. I won't go on as there are loads of examples in this thread and others.

And why wouldn't you want to read loads and loads? Why wouldn't you want to immerse yourself in fiction, and absorb good practice that way? It's so much more enjoyable than reading craft books, imo.

*And that's if the advice given is sensible. Some of it's plain daft.